249: Parents of Teenagers with Marie Vakakis

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Marie Vakakis about parents of teenagers. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• The Couples Therapist Couch Summary
• Transcript

The Couples Therapist Couch 249: Parents of Teenagers with Marie Vakakis

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

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In this episode, Shane talks with Marie Vakakis about parents of teenagers. Marie is a Therapist, Mental Health and Relationship Educator, and Host of the This Complex Life podcast. Hear the pros & cons of family therapy vs. couples therapy, how to work through parenting struggles in couples therapy, how to navigate differing parenting styles with clients, the language parents should use when communicating with their teenagers, and whether it’s okay to show vulnerability as a parent. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• How to determine who your client is: the family system or the teenager
• How to help parents when they have different views on how to interact with their child's behavior
• Is there a healthy way to share your emotions with the child?
• What's the age-appropriate way to be vulnerable with your children?
• How we learn emotions 

To learn more about Marie Vakakis & This Complex Life, visit:

MarieVakakis.com.au

This Complex Life podcast

Inside Social Work podcast

Marie Vakakis on LinkedIn

 

 Check out the episode, show notes, and transcript below: 

Show Notes

• 249: Parents of Teenagers with Marie Vakakis

• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [0:38] Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch 
• [1:28] Welcome to the show, Marie Vakakis!
• [2:06] Check out the Inside Social Work podcast
• [3:40] How Marie started teaching about parents with teenagers
• [5:42] How to determine of who your client is, the family system or the teenager
• [8:52] How to help your clients set consistent boundaries during conflict
• [10:22] Understanding how each parent will interact with conflict
• [14:10] When stories are revealed, couples understand how their values are aligned
• [17:52] How to help parents when they have different views on how to interact with their child's behavior
• [21:21] Dealing with teenagers starting to set boundaries
• [25:07] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more
• [26:00] Is there a healthy way to share your emotions with the child?
• [28:30] What's the age-appropriate way to be vulnerable with your children?
• [31:03] Are the teens witnessing you display the values that you want to give them?
• [33:45] For whose benefit do we express our emotions?
• [36:56] Being aware of why you're parenting in each moment
• [40:12] We shouldn't just operate from our default settings
• [43:14] Connect with Marie Vakakis and check out This Complex Life podcast!
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

You could say,  really like when we have family dinner and I'd like to do more of that instead of saying you never want to have dinner with us anymore.

 

00:14

Welcome to The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:30

Hey everybody, welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

00:59

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the couple's therapist couch. This is Shane Birkel. And today I'm speaking with Marie Vakakis, therapist and host of This Complex Life podcast. Hey Marie, welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm really excited to chat with you today. Why don't you start by telling

 

01:28

everyone a little bit more about yourself. You probably tell from an accent I'm based in Australia. I'm a couples and family therapist and I work in a small private practice, seeing couples, families and adolescents. And then I run the podcast, this complex life. had another one called inside social work and then I swapped it and now I thought I'm just going to do both because I like teaching to different audiences. And I have a couple of online courses for parents. I've got

 

01:54

a program I created called Connected Teens and then some couples therapy sort of resources as well. Yeah, great. Well, tell everyone a little bit more about the podcasts. Inside Social Work was actually the first one I did, just an experiment. was like interviewing different student placement settings. So we have to do a number of hours of student placements. And I thought, look, if my students just listen to this, then that's fine.  And I started enjoying it and I got to reach out to a lot of people and meet.

 

02:20

I started off with social workers and I expanded it to various sort of allied health and health, I guess, workers.  But I was just hearing stories of people who  are doing interesting things, whether it be volunteer work or starting charities, talking about then burnout stress. More recently, like the most recent episode was what to do when you're going through grief after a client,  you've lost a client to suicide. So some really deep topics as well.  And then this complex life was more for the kinds of resources I could

 

02:50

Give to clients. So I've just come off sort of the end of a mini series on interviewing different couples, therapists, and talking about different sort of relationship components and  sex and intimacy and stigma. And another season has been around men's mental health. So I kind of batch,  um, so long as I batch little seasons to sort of make it easy, I guess, to reach out to guests and know what I'm talking about. Uh, so yeah, they kind of just develop separately into their own little, uh, world, I guess.

 

03:19

Yeah, that's great.  And, you know, you and I were talking beforehand. I feel like it's  going to be a really good topic, but you work a lot with parents of teenagers. Yeah, that's how I got into couples work. Actually, I  was working with  teenagers in schools and I was like, cool, I'm nailing this. get it. I get teens. I can be daggy. I can do all the rapport building,  but they came with parents and I'd bring parents in the room and be like,

 

03:49

Uh, he's an informative brochure or I'd be really kind of hardcore advocating for the young person. I did not know how to do anything relational. And so I went back and studied family therapy and the first practice I worked that was like, Oh, you study family therapy here, see couples. I like, don't know what to do. So I just enrolled to the Gottman training level one was available online and I found your podcast and I was literally going through episodes, trying to learn as I went.

 

04:17

couple specific, I guess, tools and strategies while staying my first couple while studying family therapy. So it was a real work around how I got there. Yeah.  Well, that's great. mean, I feel like that happens to a lot of therapists where you just kind of get thrown into working with couples. And I'm  really happy to hear that you took the step of trying to get the education, trying to figure out like  how, to do this. Cause I think

 

04:45

Sometimes there's an assumption that just because I'm a therapist, I also know how to work with couples, but I feel like it's a completely different thing. It's  such a different thing.  And I feel like the family therapy training does  lend itself a bit more to working with couples because you have such a,  like for us, you have a live practical component. So you learn to sit with multiple people in the room. But if I was just learning the theory.

 

05:13

and doing the odd role play, I'd have no idea. I wouldn't even know how to interject or catch a pattern and highlight or any of the things. I would be too terrified. absolutely. Well, yeah. And I've been in those situations where you're working with a teenager and then the parents come into the meetings and it can be such a challenging  thing. And I think it's important  to realize like, who is my client here? Right. Because I might be approaching this differently if

 

05:42

If I'm just like advocating for the young person and that's my goal versus  if I feel like there's potential for the whole family, family system to like  heal in some ways.  Anyway,  those are challenging situations and you really have to be aware of everything that's going on in the room and have that sort of systemic mindset about what's going on.  absolutely. And it's interesting about who the client is. And I think that

 

06:10

changes your conceptualization of am I bringing in a few people to support the young person or is the relationship or the family system the client?  Yeah, and how do you see that? I mean, do you think it's case by case? I guess it depends on the referral. So I think if people come in for family work, then I'll see the whole family as  they might have come with a presenting  issue or challenge or something like that. Then we work as a whole family.

 

06:38

And if it's a young person and then I'm bringing the parents in  to support, I'm still using those same skills and I'm still trying to conceptualize about how that young person's experiences impact in the family system and bringing it back. But it's, it's a bit of a case by case basis. Yeah. And I know  I ended up working with a lot of couples where they bring up the parenting  as a topic that they're struggling with.

 

07:08

I think it goes hand in hand. On the one hand, I'm teaching them some ideas for how to parent. On the other hand, I'm teaching them how to be more relational with each other. But I think those things do go hand in hand. mean, the more confident they feel about how they're working with their teenager and the better that's going, the better they're going to feel in their relationship.  being on the same page with each other is going to help the teenager feel like...

 

07:35

more stable because they're getting a consistent message from both parents. Yeah, I think, I mean, I've thought about that, the being on the same page and I, I don't know if it needs to happen all the time. I used to think that I used to really feel like parents need to be on the same page. And now I'm realizing conflict is healthy. It's having some ground rules of maybe we speak with respect. We don't yell over each other. don't undermine.

 

08:01

And we can have different opinions and we can have different things and that be okay. So it's, finding a balance of that and actually have to agree on  everything all the time. And some conflict is okay. I don't think enough of us or our parents have healthy conflict and then connect again. It was either done behind closed doors or maybe someone would storm out or fight and we never saw them make up. Yeah, that's such a good point. Yeah. And I totally agree.

 

08:30

It's important for kids to see that healthy conflict. And like you said, like, especially if there's a commitment to being respectful, commitment to repairing, there's a foundation of love at the basis of it. But at the same time, I guess.

 

08:48

What would you say? I mean, would you agree that at the end of the day,  like it's good for kids if they know like, if I do this, like, like, let's say if I call somebody a name in my family, that both parents sort of have a consistent approach, like they've come to some sort of agreement about like, okay, the consequence for calling someone a name is that you lose screen time for an hour. That like there's  at the end of the day, there's

 

09:17

There's some consistency that the parents sort of approach  the way they're parenting the kids. Consistency in the,  it's process, not content. And when I run, um, live parenting workshops, parents will ask these sorts of questions like, what's a,  appropriate punishment or what's a good consequence? Like let's be consistent.  And I try and redirect it to the thing for you to be consistent with is how you have those conversations.

 

09:46

Whether it is emotion coaching, whether it is saying, we're going to sit down together as a family and discuss this, or I'm very disappointed in that behavior. We need to talk about this. So having a consistent, I guess, language of handling difficulty is going to be more important than sort of a star chart or structured rules or here at punishments and consequences for these things. So people are missing that  flexibility in how they communicate.

 

10:15

rather than what they communicate about. I guess that's just what I'm observing. Yeah, that's great. Can you say a little more about that as far as, again, like I'm thinking even in what you're saying, the parents would have to have an understanding, like a similar understanding with each other about,  my, let's say that my inclination as a parent is just to yell at my kids  if they do something wrong. Like that's my natural tendency that

 

10:45

If I'm going to therapy with you,  part of it is learning that maybe that's not the healthiest way of  coming into the situation and helping your child. let's sort of, I'm using the word like get on the same page. Let's sort of understand like, how would each of you approach this and what do you think is going to be the most helpful or something like that? Yeah, as you were saying, you know, one parent yelling at the children.

 

11:11

I  immediately kind of played it out in my head and I can say the other parent yelling at that parent saying, don't yell at the kids or  you're always being so critical while being critical and yelling themselves.  And so a lot of those couples therapy techniques, regardless of your modality, you know, whether it's  relational therapy, Gottman, EFT, like it doesn't matter. There's some really key, I guess, consistent things across them around how to talk about those things.

 

11:39

And not to be critical, not to be judgmental to kind of have it, I guess, an assumption of good intent. Earlier, you were kind of  talking about the family,  how I would see them as a client. And I thought of an example of a recent family where I had them for couples therapy, but the parenting was a difficulty. And it's almost like with other issues where we see sort of a one person overcompensates for the other, then they go more into their own position.

 

12:07

So for example, if a parent feels like they're being very, one parent feels like their partner's being very critical, they might be extra soft and nurturing. And then that partner's like, well, you're letting them get away with everything. So I have to be extra strict and extra harsh. And then the other one's like, well, you're getting so harsh and so strict. I'm going to be extra soft. And then they both go to these two extremes. You're nodding along. Do you see that happening? absolutely. Right.

 

12:34

And so it becomes like anything else where it's that dance of,  I can't say anything, get it right. But you're always being so critical and  we get a strict kind of division. And then sometimes the young person is the one that ends up in therapy. Yeah, that's really sad reality that I think there's a lot of kids that grow up in somewhat chaotic environments and then they have their own issues and they sort of get blamed for being the problem in the family system.

 

13:03

But yeah, mean, like the way that I think about that, because  you're right, I see that a lot. And I think that usually parents are more on the same page than they even realize. They're like creating that sort of like  oppositional force toward each other by saying like, well, I'm to be overly nurturing and then I have to be overly critical or, you know, I try to emphasize that there are strengths  in all of these approaches  and trying to help them to sort of

 

13:32

understand, you know,  how can you be nurturing and firm at the same time or nurturing and consistent at following through or whatever it may be. And I don't know, you know, how you might approach some of those situations.  think you're right in saying they have something more in common than they realize. They might just have a different, a different way of getting there. So I was working with a family or with a couple recently and the idea of school came up.

 

14:01

whether to send their kids to a private school or public school. And both of them immediately said the exact opposite to each other with such conviction, like, of course we're sending them to private school. And the other one was like, of course we're sending them to public school. And when we unpacked that, were thinking, and they were maybe catastrophizing, but they were kind of projecting a future for these children based on their own experiences. So one, the one that wanted to send them to private school was like,

 

14:27

I didn't have these opportunities growing up. are in a financial position to send our kids to private school. We can give them a leg up. And if they have even half the work ethic or tenacity or grit that we have, they'll use that platform and excel further. And the other person was like, I didn't have that kind of education. I turned out fine. I've got a hard work ethic because I didn't have that. I want my kids to be kind of real and  not be too elitist and

 

14:57

Then there was a whole story for her that came out about seeing the kids at the private school and her parents making comments around, they're elite as snobs or they've had it, had everything handed to them on a silver platter. And so she had all these ideas around private school, meaning wealth and wealth being a bad thing because of all the stories she heard.  so when we unpacked it further, they were both trying to create humans.

 

15:23

that were respectful and kind and had a strong work ethic, but also had some opportunity that were kind. And  once we could actually then break it down to values, they were able to have a different type of conversation around what is important and what might be other ways that they can teach those children, their children about those values. And then we were able to come to a compromise. But if they were just fighting about private school, state school, here are the statistics, here are the outcomes. This is what our friends said. This is what was in the newspaper.

 

15:52

they've lost it completely. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And I think that's such a great opportunity that we have in therapy with families and with couples is to  help them have that basis or foundation and the values that they have,  you know, because they can be much more understanding with each other instead of just arguing over what, you know, they're seeing in front of them. I think that, uh,

 

16:20

if somebody's being overly critical with the children, they have values or they probably have intentions of, want to make sure my children are good people in the world. So my job is to teach them and they only know that, you know, maybe based on their own upbringing, this is the only way they know how to address whatever's going on. Like with what you were just talking about, I  imagine it's incredibly helpful to have  them

 

16:49

talk about why that's important to them, what they really want for the children and starting with that before just telling them that the way they're talking to the kids is wrong. Yeah. If you're going to say that you'll lose the other person's engagement, none of us like to be told what to do. So the second you're told you're wrong, you create resistance where maybe there wasn't any before. if they were like 60, 40, you're going to move them back to a hundred percent, I'm not going to get on board with this because you've told me I'm wrong.

 

17:18

I can't admit that I'm wrong because that'll hurt my, my ego or my pride or it's like if someone gives you something to throw in the bin and, or in the trash and they're like, just throw this out. You'll probably just take and throw it out. But if they said, Oh, can you remove all of these things and whatever you do, do not look inside. You kind of look inside like it's planted the seed there. So the more we specifically say, don't do this or you're wrong. create resistance. you know, we,

 

17:46

put the focus on the exact thing that we're trying to change.  You said something earlier about,  you know, not setting up consequences or something like that for kids or focusing more on the way the conversation is happening. Can you say more about like, if there are two parents that they're struggling, let's say with a teenager that, you they're teenager  and they both have different ideas of how to approach it. I mean, how would you help someone work through that?

 

18:16

If I had the whole family, that would be amazing. But if I'm working with the parents, I would get them to talk to me about  what are the qualities that they want for their teenager. And I, I do see an increase in referrals at that cusp of adolescence. seems that as children start to turn into teenagers, that's when we see a bit of extra conflict in families as a child's trying to individuate, maybe they're rejecting their parents a little bit.  And parents can feel that they can feel.

 

18:46

All of a sudden I'm not as important or they're my teenagers rebelling or I've just got to, you know, fight them for their attention. And they kind of, they could sometimes do that in a way that pushes the child further away.  So I would be unpacking that I'd be asking them about their family history, like what their adolescence was like. Maybe they were super, super rebellious and took all these risks and they're terrified of their child doing the same thing. Or maybe one parent had.

 

19:14

Very different experience. actually understanding where you came from and where your partner came from is a really good first step. So I would have, I could have a couple of sessions in understanding their experience of being a teenager, what their values are as parents, what kind of parent they want to be. And if we need to do some psycho education, I might sprinkle that in around adolescent development. It's kind of normal to start differentiating to pulling away.

 

19:43

to seek more autonomy and parents can feel really rejected by that. And then we talk about  what evokes those feelings of rejection, what behaviors, and then how did the parents respond? Because if you were the parent that used to drop your kids off at the school gate, maybe they even gave you a cuddle,  you know, a little kiss and then off they went. And then all of a sudden in a year or two, they're like, can you drop me off like four blocks away? Cause I can not be seen with you.  That might be the thing that evokes those feelings of rejection.

 

20:13

And then how do you respond? you overcompensate by being like, okay, I'm really sorry. I'll do this and I'll pack your lunch and I'll drive you here. Or do you say, stuff you, I don't need this anyway. I've got better things to do. Or do you guilt trip them and say, you don't know how much I've sacrificed to you. I'm driving you to work and I've had to negotiate this with my boss. So I'd be bringing it back to some of those key family patterns before we could start looking at managing difficult behavioral conflict. Because if the parents can't get a

 

20:42

an understanding of what activates them, what's triggering these big feelings, what those feelings even are. We might not get the kind of traction we need in the other areas of whether it's  not even like calling it discipline, but sort of having boundaries and consequences and I guess a harmonious household.  no, I love what you're saying about looking at the parents experiences and sort of helping them do their own work.

 

21:10

if the therapist has that opportunity because it's so important for teenagers,  that's a normal healthy part of the process for them to begin to figure out what their boundaries  are.  Like  you said, if the parent has always given them a little snuggle before they  went off to school and like,

 

21:37

the parent starts leaning in and the kid's like, no, I don't want to hug or like they're practicing sort of setting boundaries. the healthier the parent is,  like obviously there's going to be that feeling of rejection there could be,  or the feeling of like, oh my gosh, my kid doesn't love me, or it feels hurtful that they don't want to hug anymore.  But like the healthier the parent is, the more they can accept.

 

22:03

those things from the child  and sort of model a really healthy acceptance of,  know, which teaches the child, yeah, you have the right to decide if somebody's going to hug you. You have the right to decide what your boundaries are. And that's like really important. And I think if like you said, I love the way you had said that, like if the parents struggling with that, that a lot of times that's their own  stuff.

 

22:30

that if they don't check it out or work with it for themselves, they're just going to  let it seep onto the next generation in an unhealthy way. And think of the stories that then come out of that. So in the example of the kid being dropped off at school, imagine that parent who's maybe responded in an unhelpful way,  getting to work or coming home at the end of the day and.

 

22:52

complaining to their spouse or a work colleague like, my daughter, Marie, she's such a brat. matter what I do, it's just never good enough. She's so ungrateful. You won't believe what she did. It's like she was disgusted at me. Right. Very different to saying,  Oh, she didn't want me to drop her off. And  I miss when I used to be able to give her a hug. Oh, I'm feeling so rejected right now. It changes the narrative. It goes from  noticing how I feel and how I've interpreted the behavior.

 

23:22

verse, I'm blaming them for making me feel this way and I'm giving it a whole big story.  I totally hear the difference and how helpful that would be. Would you actually say that to the teen or is that more something you would share with your partner or something like that? It could be a little bit of both. It could be,  we want some things to stay within the couple.  parents need a friend, a partner. They need to be able to process some of their

 

23:51

human stuff, they're parenting stuff with another safe adult, not their child. And then it might be also okay to say, I am feeling a little rejected  and I'm still going to drive you to school. I'd like to find something that we can do together that replaces the, you know, walk into the school gate. So you need to settle it down enough to think what are they wanting? They probably want connection.

 

24:17

But if you're criticizing your child, if you're nagging at them, if you're saying they're a spoiled brat, they're so ungrateful, they're not going to turn around one day and say, you know what, you're right. I am so ungrateful and I've been so rude and inconsiderate and I want to spend all this time with you and let's do all this fun stuff to get, they're not going to do that. I get them reflecting on that. I might not be as psychoeducational as kind of highlighting it that way. I could probably do it through either circular questioning or getting the couple to have.

 

24:47

conversation to each other. So if I was using, you know, strictly Gottman method, we'd do like a wrapper port and sort of say, okay, let's talk about this thing together and getting them to have that felt experience of a different conversation rather than a lecture. a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients.

 

25:13

That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform.

 

25:43

Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com backslash A-T-P-P or click the link in the show notes to learn more. There is a healthy way of sharing it with the child. if  I'm like, if my emotions are taking over and I'm feeling it and everyone in the room can see that, it would be helpful for me to own it.

 

26:10

and say something like, I'm just feeling a little rejected. I know this is my own my own experience. You're not doing anything wrong. If I have that ability versus like that would be healthy, you know, once in a while, perhaps  to just sort of own it and share with my teenager like this is just stuff I'm experiencing, you know, versus making them feel responsible for it, you know, versus like

 

26:35

Every like telling them every day, like,  Oh, you don't hug me anymore. I feel so rejected. I feel so hurt.  Like there could be a way that that comes out and it feels like a big burden on the child that the parent is like, emotions are dependent on what the child is deciding to do.  it can be burdensome, but if we strip it back, if we did that style of communicating in other contexts, it wouldn't get you what you want.

 

27:01

It pushes the thing you want away most. So the neediness, it's not actually asking for what you want. It's criticizing the other person. Yes.  It's like aggressive. Yeah. It's like saying, oh, it's so nice of you to finally  join us for dinner. That's going to already create tension. But if you like, it's really nice to see you. So I think some people really struggle. Maybe it feels too vulnerable or there's a fear of rejection.

 

27:29

but they're not actually clear in saying what they want or what they would like or what they need. They  hide it behind an attack or criticism or sarcasm and none of those  helpful strategies for good communication.  like, I'll ask it as a question. I have my own thoughts about it, but  would you use the same vulnerable communication with your child as you would with your partner?

 

27:59

You would make it age appropriate, but it would have some common themes. So it could be, you know, you might not say, feel really,  I feel like my role as a parent has changed and I don't know what to do now that you're growing up. You might not need to say that to a 10 year old, but you could say, I really like when we have family dinner. And I'd like to do more of that. Right. Right. Instead of saying you never want to have dinner with us anymore. Yeah. But, but.

 

28:27

Even if it's being expressed in a healthy way, there's an age appropriate way of doing it. Of course. Like I might tell my partner like, hey, I'm feeling really lonely in this relationship. I would like to connect more. I'd like to figure out how we can. I really makes me feel good when you give me a hug. You know, like those are things I might say to my partner, but I feel like I wouldn't approach it the same way with my child, even if it is vulnerable and taking responsibility.

 

28:56

You might, but you'd use different words. So instead of saying,  you don't want to play with mommy anymore, you might say, mom finds it really fun when we play together, but I don't think you like those toys anymore. Is there anything else that would be fun? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So you're still coming. You're still coming. You might be using a different emotion and you might be expressing a different part of it, but we're using a,  I guess, relationship  or a conversation pattern that is more.

 

29:24

conducive to getting you what you want because I mean, I don't know about you, but I've in all my therapy training, I have not learned the techniques of sarcasm is being helpful. Criticism is being helpful. Well, no, I'm agreeing with But I'm saying like if I were to like to take a statement like I feel lonely in our relationship, like it could be a very healthy way of sharing something with my partner, but I don't think it would be a healthy thing to express to a teenager.

 

29:54

I'm not talking about sarcasm or criticism or anything else. the feeling is loneliness. What are your options then? Because you can say, I miss how close we used to be. You might not need to say, I feel lonely now. You might say, I would like to spend more time together and I know you're very busy.  Yeah, I  miss you. I miss what we had. So  you can dance around.

 

30:23

You don't need to say, I'm lonely now.  Yeah. No, those are some really beautiful suggestions that you're making that I think is much more appropriate in the way it's more like, I'm not dependent on you for how I feel, but like, how do we create positive connection with each other in this new  phase? So I really appreciate the way you're.

 

30:50

You know, some of the, some of the suggestions you're making in the communication, that would be super helpful. With older teenagers, you probably could use the loneliness as part of the apology. If you really did get it wrong, you could say, Hey, I just, want to say how I handled the conversation yesterday. Didn't go well. I have been feeling a bit lonely. I've changed jobs or maybe there's a divorce or separation, whatever.  And it wasn't fair for me to place that all on you. I'm going to start.

 

31:20

looking at things that I can do to keep busy. But I took out my big feelings on you and that wasn't, that wasn't okay.  what I encourage parents to do is when we think back to those original values of the kind of human you want to create, are they witnessing that? Are you giving them the tools and the skills for that? If you want them to be authentic  and have accountability and take responsibility for when they make a mistake or when they do something.

 

31:49

cheeky or naughty, have they got the language for that? And we learn that by feeling it, by seeing it, by experiencing  it. so mistakes are also really good teaching opportunity. Yeah, I love that. And I think that I talk about this sometimes, like, let's say that I, that I use harshness  in the, when I'm talking to my teenager, I could say, I could, after that,

 

32:18

It's that that accountability is really important that I could say, I'm so sorry  I crossed the line with the harshness that wasn't okay.  And you still, you know, have a consequence for hitting your brother or whatever. Exactly. You know, like you can still follow through. think that's sometimes parents are like, well,  I can't show any vulnerability as the parent or they won't follow  my directions or something like that.

 

32:46

That's a common comment I hear and the opposite is actually true. They have so much more respect for people who own their mistakes and apologize. And your example is a sort of example I would give someone of, can say, I reacted poorly to, I don't know, you breaking curfew, I yelled and screamed and that wasn't okay. I'm still upset that you broke curfew and maybe we're going to talk about that tomorrow or this, you know, whatever consequence we agree to that's still in place. But this part.

 

33:15

this way this happened was not okay and I'm sorry. I'm sorry I raised my voice or I'm sorry I snapped.  I don't know. Maybe this is just my own history or something. There's something about  when you said, I'm upset that you broke curfew. For whose benefit am I sharing that emotion with the child? In other words, you know, and I think you and I are seeing it the same way as far as like, you know, the parents need to take responsibility for their own

 

33:45

emotions, not put that on the child. But to me, it's like,  I don't know how much of that is like, like, when you were giving the examples, I thought it was really beautiful and creative and like more of a positive, like, let's figure out how we can spend more time together. Let's figure out like, felt accepting of the child. didn't feel like I'm putting like, responsibility on them or something. But like,  maybe I'm just getting stuck on this, this one part. I don't know.

 

34:15

It's so context dependent. When I run, we've got  a program in Australia called Tuning Into Teens and it was research done by the University of Melbourne based on some of the research from the Gottman Institute and bringing that back into what we know works for healthy relationships. And then how do we learn that? And one of the skills they pulled out of that is this idea of emotion coaching. And so it's, we learn emotions by them being told to us.

 

34:43

And repeated throughout time. So if someone was to,  you might not say, I was upset. That might not have been the right words, but it could be,  I was disappointed when you broke curfew. It's more around the apologizing for my reaction. might not even need to say the feeling if that doesn't feel appropriate. It's like, I want to apologize for how I reacted and you still broke the rules.  And then in, in the couple on their own, if you're working with them,  if they're really fixated on

 

35:11

particular response, like maybe they get angry or they flip their lid or they get really distressed. Then we can unpack what that's about. For parents, often some of the themes I see is they feel disrespected.  And it's, it's, it's not so much about the,  breaking of the curfew, but it's like,  laid down a rule and you disrespected me and somewhere in for them, this idea of respect has a big role.

 

35:39

It can be, I feel taken advantage of. I've tried all these things is the one thing I ask of you. And so then in the couples sessions on their own, we can sort of dive deeper about what's creating some of that reactivity for the parent. So we're sort of talking about two different things. One is emotion coaching and teaching accountability and  repair. And another is if a parent is responding to conflict in the within that dynamic in a way that's

 

36:08

unhelpful and explosive or maybe even aggressive or completely disconnecting, then they might need some support to understand why they're reacting so often that way. So we've kind of got a few different things depending on what the family's bringing to the sessions. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's that it is helpful to have sort of a framework or a philosophy of how to

 

36:38

communicate in a nonviolent way,  to communicate in a respectful way, how to take accountability  for the actions. And I think that, you know, it's about the best part of parenting that all of us would like to accomplish is  for the child, right? Like  if the child is doing things that are going to be harmful to themselves or others, we are trying to teach them

 

37:06

you know, how to have healthy boundaries, how to respect other people's boundaries, how to  take responsibility for how they make other people feel in a healthy way versus am I I parenting because of my own  stuff, which is like the kids are annoying me. So I'm  being sort of critical or punishing because of my own trauma response that's coming up. That's not

 

37:34

for their good, that's not for their guidance, that's because I have my own anxiety and my own history and my own trauma, right? So if it's coming from that place, that's going to be, that's gonna leave a  traumatizing impact for  those children experiencing that with me. If I'm not learning how to take responsibility for myself to go to therapy, get healthy, figure out how to be accountable.

 

38:00

And it doesn't mean people don't make mistakes. mean, everybody makes, we all make mistakes, but like you said, just sort of teaching them how to be accountable when that happens and modeling  the communication that's going to be helpful after the fact.  think, they're on a spectrum of complexity. And you one, we're looking at mental illness or mental ill health or, you know, other things happening in the family trauma that are impacting the individual parent.

 

38:28

which obviously then impacts that relationship, whether it's the parents  or with the children. And then in general, we can all benefit from learning some new ways of handling conflict. think that's lacking across most of our culture is how to sit in conflict, how to repair, how to have conversations that keep that connection as the focus being curious. And a lot of couples work is like that. It's being curious. It's.

 

38:57

Not making too many assumptions, asking more questions, reflecting, listening, showing empathy, validating. And kids need that too. They need to feel that from the parents. I've had so many who say, I don't even think my parents like who I am because all they do is pick on me.  And the parents are devastated to hear that, but then they replay back the last week of interactions. And it's where are your shoes? Where's your bag? We're running late. What are you doing? Have you done this? Have you done that? And yeah, that's.

 

39:26

Practically that happens in a busy household, but if that's all you hear all the time and you're a growing, developing young mind, it starts to make you think, did they even like who I am? Can I get anything right? So we can still improve some of those communication tools. like with any mental health relationship stuff, some people can do really good through some podcasts, some books, some audio books or.

 

39:54

parenting books or workshops, and some people benefit from therapy or group therapy or some sort of relationship coaching. So there's different tools out there to help people along depending on what they need. Yeah, that's great. And I want to emphasize what you're saying as far as like  getting the resources, getting the education, like listening to podcasts, reading books, whatever it is, you know, because I think because of the society we live in probably

 

40:23

like our own natural  reactions aren't always going to be healthy. If we're just operating from our own default settings, then,  you know, it's probably not the healthiest way of being a parent. And there's so much to learn out there and  so many great things that you said here and, you know, in the podcast today, just to sort of help people in the way that they're thinking about their parenting, how to make the child feel valued and respected. And it's

 

40:52

But like you said, like, and I've seen this happen in a lot of cases where like, the kid will actually like, there's this fear that if I am too kind with the child, then they're just going to run all over me. And I've seen so many examples where that's not actually the case, right? Like if parents learn how this healthy communication that you're talking about, like the child actually appreciates it and the child  will have more respect for someone who's willing to be accountable, willing to be authentic and

 

41:22

Uh, learns how to communicate respectfully. And kind. mean, think that's associated with a permissive style of parenting, which  the evidence doesn't show that that's a helpful one, but you can be kind and be firm. can be kind and have boundaries. You can tell someone this behavior was not okay and not withdraw love  that gets mixed up. Kind doesn't mean get away with everything. There's no rules. There's no boundaries. It's whatever it's I can say really kindly.

 

41:49

something, I can be very clear in my communication and being clear can be kind. You can be assertive and be kind. And that's the important bit is being kind, having empathy, validating doesn't mean you agree. Doesn't mean you endorse, but it's helping that person feel heard. And when they feel heard, they're more open to influence and connection is stays intact. And then if you've got that connection, you can influence, you can be the listening ear, you can be the

 

42:18

the lighthouse that shows them where the rocks are. But if it's critical or  sarcastic or passive aggressive, all these little nitpicking, you kind of chip away at that relationship and they're not as open to your influence. And so you kind of lose them. Yeah, that's a great distinction. This is such a helpful conversation. Why don't you say more about where people can find you? Mention your podcast again and your website and everything. Yeah. So my website is

 

42:48

My name, MarieVakakis.com.au because I'm in Australia  and my podcast  is This Complex Life  and Inside Social Work. And I probably hang out most on LinkedIn. So if you want to connect, you can find me on LinkedIn. Great. All right. Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation and hopefully we can catch up again at some point in the future. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

43:17

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.  Visit HelloAlma.com/ATPP or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.  And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy.  I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!