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266: Enneagram & Relationships with Christa Hardin

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this episode, Shane talks with Christa Hardin about the Enneagram & relationships. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and watch it on YouTube – follow and leave a 5-star review.

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The Couples Therapist Couch 266: Enneagram & Relationships with Christa Hardin

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

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In this episode, Shane talks with Christa Hardin about the Enneagram & relationships. Christa is a Therapist, Host of the Enneagram and Marriage podcast, and Author of The Enneagram in Marriage. Hear how to use the Enneagram to help with your therapy clients, the 9 personality types, which personality type makes the best therapists, what the Enneagram can tell your clients about their relationship & compatibility, and why it’s helpful to start with your own personality type. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

  • What is Enneagram?
  • Nature vs. nurture in the Enneagram
  • Using the Enneagram with children
  • Going through all 9 Enneagram types
  • How the Enneagram applies to couple pairings

 Learn more about Christa Hardin @EnneagramAndMarriage and at her website EnneagramAndMarriage.com

Show Notes

 

 

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

We're  so much less healthy in our personality type if we have more family trauma and drama.

 

00:11

The podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now, your host, Shane Birkel.

 

00:27

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

00:56

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel and today I'm speaking with Christa Hardin, therapist, host of the Enneagram in Marriage podcast and author of the book, The Enneagram in Marriage. Hey Christa, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Shane. This is one of my favorite shows. I'm geeking out to be here.

 

01:26

Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to have you and you and you have a huge podcast. I want to learn more about that. But why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about all the things that you do.  Oh, thank you. Well, I've been working with couples for about two decades. I started out as a marriage and family therapist trainee in the Chicago area,  moved to Southfield, Michigan near Detroit and worked for a few years in independent practice.

 

01:49

and started to grow my family more. My husband Wes and I went to grad school together. Then he went to medical school to be a PA. And now  we have three kids. And in the midst of all that, I realized I really liked private practice for all of the flexibility it offers me as a parent.  So I feel like I get to, as many of you probably do, live in the best of both worlds.  But couples have been a passion of mine.

 

02:13

ever since I was a little girl, even literally giving my parents advice and slipping notes under their door  to each other when they were having an argument. And yes, I have had therapy for that. Oh my gosh.  Yeah. I think that's true of a lot of therapists, right? They found from a young age, they wanted to like help others.  And I know what you mean about needing therapy after situations like that, you know?

 

02:37

Right. Because you're like, I'm fawning in order to make sure nobody fights. And then you're like, oh, I'm a peacemaker. And so  there's all those elements. But when you find out you have a true problem solver gift, which I think us couples helpers do,  you really it's a fit, irregardless of your past. Right. Yeah, I think I always think about it like there's two sides to that coin. Right. It develops a lot of strengths within you.

 

03:03

but it's also part of,  know, it's important to notice your growth areas too.  Yeah, I love that. And the Enneagram has been such a great tool  to help me to nuance to even see,  I was made this way and this is why also. And  here's what was going on with my parents and my high school friends. And then, you know, my clients, it gives me not just the general amazing tips we all get from the late Sue Johnson  and Gottman and

 

03:30

IFS and all the other great systems out there, but it also helps to nuance by the personality, which I have found incredibly helpful  when one system or tool doesn't work for one, but it does with another. Yeah, that's great. And I really want to get into  giving people a little bit of background information about the Enneagram. uh,  but, but I remember the first time that I heard about it and I took the test and I found out what my number was.

 

03:59

And it just felt like reading through that, it just felt like, wow, I feel seen, or I feel like, oh my gosh, it makes sense, I am the way that I am. There's something like very,  almost a sense of relief  when you take the test and you start understanding what the anagram is all about. But why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about  what it is, if they haven't even heard of it before.

 

04:26

Yes, well, the Enneagram is comprised of nine different personality types numbered one through nine,  and it really is  a personality type structure. You can see it as a physical map. There's a diagram of it.  But even just in your mind right now, just think of nine different personality types representing different strategies people  develop. We know the nature nurture argument is there, but largely in childhood otherwise to cope with life and.

 

04:54

We each have different motivations, fears, and desires that drive behavior. So even if you grew up, of course, in the same family system  with your siblings, you probably have different personality types because we know that every  system within even a family is gonna be a little different per generation, per age, per birth order. And so it's a beautiful way to distinguish, this is me, this is my  shadow, but here's my gift too.  And...

 

05:21

For instance, I'm a type seven on the Enneagram and I thought maybe it was just because I had done some helping with my family to keep things light. But what was so interesting to me, Shane, was that I read my baby book not long ago and I saw my mom said, baby, Christa is so joyful, which is the seven. And so it was fun to see some of this is just innate, right? Oh, my gosh, that's so interesting. So so.

 

05:48

And you don't have to go through all of them, but what are some of the examples like, you know, like, seven would, you know, there's the joyfulness, the playfulness, the is it risk taking? I don't know. But like there, there are like attributes that have to do with each number as you're talking about. There's these nine different types.  And it's,  it's amazing to me. I mean, there, there's like,

 

06:13

pages and pages written about each number that can describe this is what this person looks like, this is how they deal with stress, this is what they do when they're happy, this is, you know, all these different things. So, but each one  sort of, would you say has like a label of what, who it is? Yes. And because there's even subtypes within each of these nine types,  it's important that people notice

 

06:37

the core motivations of their type before they just say, oh, for instance, type one, the perfectionist usually is the title,  but some people prefer the word refiner or reformer.  And so when they know the core issue with one is feeling bad or not good  and wrong, then they realize, oh yeah, that is my core fear. And my desire is to be good and right and to be that good boy or good girl compliant in culture.

 

07:05

And so as we know, there's a lot of people who struggle with that in general, but then there's even another group of people where they would say, yeah, that is my defining most important thing is that I do the right thing. In fact, I'm married to somebody who is identified as a type one.  And so we're more than our type and we have the capacity for all nine types. And that's so important for people to hear,  but each one does have a general place and name that goes with it so that it gives us a bit of a shorthand. Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because

 

07:35

there might be two people  who both test in the same number, but they could feel, they could have very different things about them. uh Or that idea,  you know, I've worked with people who sort of felt like,  oh, well I'm this number and that's bad and my partner's this number and that's good. That's not fair. Like, and it's more like  each number has tons of great things about them.

 

08:03

And  obviously a lot of areas that are might be weaknesses or growth areas or something like that as well, that all the numbers have those things. Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up. And  as we know, as couples helpers,  even within our own marriages, our tendencies are to be  that we're a bit of the hero, our partner's a bit of the villain. And so we have that fundamental attribution error  that says, I'm going to do a quick heuristic and

 

08:29

I think it was because I yelled at you because I was tired or I ignored you because I didn't feel well. But when you did it to me, it was because  you have the bad enneagram type.  So  I like how you just noticed like every type has gifts, every type of shadows were all on even playing fields. So I want to let you  sort of lead. I mean, I don't know if you wanted to go into  describing each

 

08:54

number if that would be helpful or if you would prefer to sort of start off in a different way talking about, know, kind of explain the Enneagram to everyone. Oh my gosh, that's a wonderful idea to go through the nine and we can do this briefly,  but it's really helpful for the coaches and counselors listening to know their own type two versus just trying to drive in because I teach coaches how to  work with the Enneagram and

 

09:22

As we all know, our transference and counter-transference is so real.  So as they go through the nine types, be listening for what you think your core motivations and types might be. Does that sound good? That's great. And I love that you just said that because I was thinking about it like, oh, I want to figure out the types for my clients because that's going to help them in their life and their relationship. But that's so important too for us as the

 

09:49

coaches or therapists to sort of start with ourselves and to figure out like, how does this influence how I'm showing up in my work and in my life?  my gosh, yes. And I  think about it all the time. Like if I can get a hold of my number and do better,  then I can be much more successful in my business. And I think the success I have had is because I have  grown through some of the aches and pains of my type.

 

10:16

but I want to even do more as I know we all do. So that's why I'm excited to do that. So yeah, thank you for saying that. So we got to talk a little bit about the type one. So some of you probably resonated with that as a very core type  to say, I lean toward perfectionism, judgment.  And the good news about ones is that they can be very fair and judicious.  And so in that way, they really have a gift for justice fighting. And when something happens to someone they love,

 

10:44

they have an important role in society to fight for that. I would imagine a lot of our Supreme Court justices,  presidents have that oneness to them when they're healthy, of course.  And I think that there's a lot of people who in society are in fields like my husband's medicine, where he saved lives because he's like, oh, I saw somebody's neck and it was  pulsing in a certain way and I knew they needed to go right to the hospital.  And so I think that that's a beautiful gift of ones.

 

11:12

What my husband and many ones have come to learn is they need to have a little bit of body work and  to digest some of their justice fighting when they come home to their spouses. So by the time we see them  with their spouses, if they're not doing that, there's usually some indignancy, some anger. And sometimes it goes towards themselves as a self-perfectionism and not their partner, but usually a little bit more out at their partner.  So that's our type one. That's great. Yeah. And that's so cool.

 

11:42

It's like they can be really stressed or hypervigilant, which if  I'm in surgery, I'm hoping that my doctor is going to be hypervigilant about what's happening to me. Right? Like that's a good quality,  but yeah,  you just got to be careful.  We all have these things about us. You just have to be careful of the flip side of that. If I, if I'm constantly in the world in that way,

 

12:11

there are definitely opportunities for me to learn how to decompress more. Yes. Yeah. My husband says that people have one time nurses at another job had said, you know, we think you come in with a bit of arrogance and it's actually so, it makes me feel so safe when he admits to that and says like if to me and the kids, cause we have like our oldest is almost 20 now, our youngest is 13. And when he says, Hey guys, like if I ever come off with too much of an edge, tell me.

 

12:38

um And it's so hard for ones to say that because they think if they're wrong, then they're bad.  So  it's a journey. um So type twos are our helpers givers. I think there's a ton of therapists who are twos. I have at least,  I have two twos on my team of counselors  at my counseling center that I own.  And there are just so many others who have taken my course.  Twos are just such natural  befrienders givers.

 

13:03

They have hearts of love, whereas I talked about the one having justice. The next three types, in fact, two, three, and four, all big heart types. And so twos come in with emotions and they can feel the feeling of compliance. So if that's you and you struggle with boundaries and you struggle with saying no, and sometimes you get very codependent and can say yes, it's probably because you're a two and because you feel like in order to have worth, I have to be giving at all times.

 

13:32

And that's another job people can do. Teachers, animals, I know my best friend who's a PA and a hospital is a two.  It's a great,  wonderful personality, but people take advantage of twos. So just a reminder of that,  you set your boundaries, you are worthy of self-care,  and your clients who are twos are gonna need to learn that as well. So that's our twos.  Shall I go on to three? Yeah, sure. I was just gonna say, I remember a two that I knew.  It was very hard for them to understand why nobody was,

 

14:01

coming to help them. Like  they had this mindset where they always wanted to help everyone. And they're like, well, how come other people don't see the world in that way? And they wanted people to, to know, do that without asking for what they wanted.  Yeah. They have to learn that. I'm so glad you brought that up. As you said, there's books and books of things  for each type, but that is a pivotal piece is them directly asking  and not going along the side and manipulating to get what they want.

 

14:31

So, and you know what, if somebody says no, it's okay, because you're learning self care too.  So, our threes are achievers and performers. They love the center stage. They thrive in it.  They are so gifted with  goal getting  and doing a ton and being at the top of an organization. If they're not at the top of an org, they will be,  and they will probably become a consultant soon after that and just stop working for another org and start their own business.

 

14:58

So it's a beautiful thing to see and to witness and they don't just want it for themselves. They truly love others.  They want to see others succeed. They name drop. They love their bling. They're  often matching suits. If they're couples, they're like, Oh my gosh, we have to coordinate our outfits for this New York trip. I just heard a three saying that  and they do want the credit, but it's not because they're trying to be greedy. They can struggle with vanity. Remember we said each type has a shadow,  but part of it is that

 

15:27

They do just want love through their performance. And so they come to learn as we get healthier uh that  we need to be loved for who we are authentically, even when we're not perfect, polished, when we make mistakes, when we're not on the stage, but in the audience.  And when we're just being and not doing, that is the lesson for all three therapists and clients. If you do have any three clients, they usually try to take over the therapy a little bit. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I can just picture it as you're describing it.

 

15:59

Were you also saying it's a little bit like what I would call performance-based esteem? Like I'm enough and I matter as long as I'm successful in the world and they have a hard time slowing down and just feeling like it's okay to relax and slow down? Absolutely. they can, out of all the types, feel like, of course, a generalization, but just out of the many couples I've worked with and interviewed,

 

16:22

three seem to struggle a bit more with premarital affairs because they can wear a lot of masks. They can read the room too, like two's they're that heart type. And so if they're not wanting to be vulnerable and real with their partner, they might offload that onto, I'm gonna have some arm candy over here and I'm gonna look good, even better and shine even brighter with somebody else. And so when they actually get in, dig in, do the work, look at themselves and how they're loved authentically, slow down a bit, just tremendously hard.

 

16:51

and do their work, it's a beautiful thing. It just takes that journey that we all need to go on and that's what we can help them with. Yeah, interesting. Yes.  So I'm helping a couple threes through affairs right now. And one of them said, you know, I want to  be with my partner because they know the real me and those people out there, they're always fooled.

 

17:14

So interesting. Okay, so fours  are melancholic. They're creatives, they're individualists. Those are some of the titles for fours, the artists  and amazing therapists. In fact, it was a four who told me to go back to the Enneagram and give it a deeper look. When I first saw my type, I only knew like the quick good thing. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm joyful.  And she's like, you know, this would be such a gift to your couples.

 

17:40

And fours will take a long look. They need a lot of time with things in life. They go slow  and they sit with people in their pain better than anyone else on the enneagram. So they, again, make great therapists,  probably won't overbook themselves.  Where they can get stuck is they are doing inhibited so they can stay lost in their melancholic thought. And they often struggle with envy  because they're also that heart type who is looking for their worth.

 

18:08

through others. So there's a codependency sort of inherent with fours.  And we could go into why all of these developed the way they did. It's very interesting. We won't today, but  there are reasons why fours usually feel that way. And so you have to work with them to help them to not feel shame  and to know their worth,  even if they're not unique or special, even if they're just having a bad day and they can't sit with you in their pain, or even if they've been going really slow and they haven't produced any art for a while.

 

18:38

because everything fours do is artistic.  So I just wanted to name that that probably a lot of our listeners are fours, but one of the biggest things you could do for yourselves would be to you and your partner or let your four clients  really take their time,  but eventually get everybody some movement. Because when I said they're doing inhibited, that is a great path for them to success is just taking that first step and getting to that gym.

 

19:05

or getting into the art even though it might not be as unique as they wanted, allowing themselves to have sexual intimacy  even though it might not be the perfect moon and stars aligning. That's what I end up talking with a lot of fours about is I don't want to have any intimacy unless it's like  perfect Edgar Allen Poe night.  So it's  bringing them into the doing. That's great. I know you said we don't have, we probably don't have time to get into it today, but I'm just curious about

 

19:35

How much of,  or what are your thoughts about how much of this comes from,  like nature versus nurture? Basically, like how much of our type maybe is part of our personality from the beginning?  but I'm wondering like, is it our, you know, the family environment and the cultural environment that we grow up in also influencing that?

 

19:58

Yeah, I think that what I'm learning is that we each have a different wiring and epigenetics. It's a great question.  And  I think that what happens is we're  so much less healthy in our personality type if we have more family trauma and drama.  So I do think there's an inherent, just as I mentioned, hey, I was a baby and I was having joy already pretty early.  And I think that

 

20:23

There was already some hard knocks in my life that may have made me feel I had to fight and be optimistic.  But as a baby, I think that we all have the baseline  of that blueprint. And then we're much healthier as a three or a six or whatever our type is.  If we've had really good stable family in our lives, the more I grow older, the more I see that. Like I love my kids. I think they're pretty healthy. They'll probably need therapy about me one day, but I'm like, you've had a largely stable life.

 

20:52

and you're really good students, et cetera, kind people.  But the more I grow older, the more I realize a lot of the people who aren't kind  and don't do well just didn't have good environments. So I think they're the same temperament, but less healthy versions, if that makes sense.  Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients.

 

21:21

That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance. When you join Alma, you can get credentialed within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join Alma, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform.

 

21:51

Alma helps you spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. So our fives are often introverts. They're called the observers, the researchers, investigators.  This is a temperament that loves knowledge, the Sherlock Holmes, if you will,  with brilliance, although never fully grasping their own competency.

 

22:19

and always wanting more information. And so they too, like fours, can be  very doing inhibited. They're identified as that, but  they have now entered us into the next three types, five, six, and sevens, which are our thinking types.  And so instead of processing things through feelings in the heart, they process through this  brain type of work where it's always that first center of intelligence for them.

 

22:44

And in fact, fives can even be thought of as a brain on a stick getting locked in. And that's even more why it's important with all their mental tabs open at all times  and the energy that takes. Even more important for them to pause, to breathe, and to maybe take a walk around the block after work, do some context switching.  A lot of my fives have been so good about telling me how they do that.

 

23:08

And it's also extremely hard for fives to talk about their feelings. They're not feelings inhibited, but  feelings cost them a lot of energy that they could be using for research.  So there's a sense of that's not going to be helpful or logical for me to process with.  And some of their partners are okay with that. But when the five disappears, that's typically when I get the calls because the five is just hovering, burrowing.  And the core...

 

23:34

struggle for the fives is not only competency, but believing that if they do give out,  they forget there'll be synergy and they think I will waste all my energy and I could die.  So with these next three types, there's a sense of I need security and safety above all.  And as you can imagine with a heart type needing attention, which often pairs up with a five, now we're getting into the fun stuff of like that's hard.  So that's our five. Yeah. Are there any and I don't

 

24:01

I don't know if it's helpful to think about it this way or not helpful to think about it this way, but are there any sort of male female  tendencies  with these?  Yeah, that is a great question because any type can be anything  on any spectrum, but I do see that fives are more of what we would say a masculine type.  And for many women, they would say, yeah, I'm a five and that fits for me. And some might not like that label, but it is very helpful to know that more m

 

24:30

Fives tend to be males.  And I would say the same for, not just I would say, but I've researched  eights as well, which we'll talk about, powerful type,  ones, that type I mentioned, like my husband. um sometimes it's so fascinating, but as we get more thorough hormone tests,  my husband was saying how sometimes people who are in that one space maybe have too much testosterone.  I know a type one female who's on a testosterone blocker.

 

24:59

So just another place for us to explore with our clients. My husband was also telling me that people who test even for testosterone often don't test for estrogen. Males even need a little bit of that. And when they don't have it, they have no empathy or ability to want the oxytocin.  So I say that on five because I just think that people think sometimes they lack nurture  and maybe they're more testosterone.

 

25:25

driven. So some of this we should look at biologically too, not just psychologically. Oh, interesting. Interesting. I some of the things you're saying too, as far as like, these are things people should explore for themselves. It's a very non-judgmental way of talking about it. You it doesn't mean that you're stuck in this. It doesn't mean there's a problem. It's, this is all stuff to be really curious about  and,  um,

 

25:53

I just wanted to highlight that. really appreciate the language you're using when you're talking about it in that way. Yeah, absolutely. And  I think that we're all learning through whatever modalities we use. If it's not a fit, don't wear it.  But if it is helpful and it's an aha moment, oh my gosh, it can be so helpful. And that's why I moved into Enneagram work after I was the, and I said MFT in Illinois, but in Michigan and ended up being a psychological assessor  and the one out of 20 of us on the team who would get stuck with, and I liked it, but.

 

26:21

all of the psychological batteries and it would be just mounds and mounds and tests after tests of MMPIs and Phyrobies and whatever else.  And Enneagram is so much simpler and I actually think it goes so much deeper so much sooner. So  I'm glad you like, yeah, I'm glad you like that we can use this system to  get deeper.  So our sixes are another thinking type and they are really good at security, loyalty, but they're also really good at being skeptical.

 

26:49

Some people call them that, the skeptic, the devil's advocate.  Sometimes they're just called the loyalist. And there's, of course, as we said, subtypes within each type we won't get into today. But  the truth is that sixes are some of the kindest people for supporting those they love.  And they will go to bat for you and stay with you, even if you're hard, annoying. So many of us are  over-boundaried, myself included.  And I always learn from sixes because of the deep way they love.

 

27:18

but they are  neurotic. And so  taking a deep breath around our sixes, taking a deep breath when we're in a six mode is so important because they're brilliance. think that probably comes because they're right in the center of the thinking types, but  I think some of the most prolific, brilliant people, in fact, Dan Siegel, who you had on your podcast not long ago,  he is a six  and he is so brilliant as you know.  But he said, hey, when I get tracking into my...

 

27:47

skepticism or my doubts or overly planning and negatively chaining, it can be a disaster. And that's what we have to work with our six clients on ourselves when we get into a six mode  of, think a lot of us therapists and helpers can do that where we're like, okay, I have to  help my couple. Oh my gosh, I have to troubleshoot.  And there's a sense of panic that can come along with that.  And that can really throw off your game.  So when we're working on our six space, it's important to notice.

 

28:16

how can I get myself regulated? And that's the work with all of our six clients too. Cause as you heard me say,  this is the person you actually want in a crisis because they have planned so much.  If you can get them past their fear. Would this be like a good, like police officer energy? Yeah, that's a great example of it when they're healthy, right? If they take it too far, no, but yes, they make such great  police officers cause they care about

 

28:44

doing what is safe and good.  And I think that a lot of us think of sixes also as that firefighter energy of I have so much courage  and I'm ready for the fire more than you are. But we have to help our sixes to know you can do it without me because often out of all your clients, your sixes are the ones who are gonna ask you most,  what should I do? Which I know we try to avoid, but even as helpers, we just feel so flattered with that question.

 

29:12

And there's such a desire to give them the answer. so of course, with our sixes, we have to be extra careful because they're so loyal. They're so kind. They're so trusting. We have to help them to find their own voice versus just listening to authority. Yeah. Okay. Good. Good. There's so much there, but yeah. Okay. Our sevens. So this is our joyful type, the enthusiast. You heard me say that about myself and we have these gifts of, think, problem solving and

 

29:41

being able to look at big systems and to integrate those big systems mentally because we're one of the thinking types.  Now, I don't think an unhealthy seven does that very well and can be very scattered and just impure gluttony.  And that is the issue with the seven. And once you know these and you're  really like, okay, I wanna be schooled in this and I wanna be better. I don't want anyone to get the impression you don't  struggle against your vice. I struggle against gluttony every single day still.

 

30:10

And that's being a person in therapy, being a person doing all this work for 20 years.  It's just part of my nature is I like doing and I like overdoing.  So if I'm going to take a run, I want to go for a long time. If I eat, I want to eat a lot, that kind of thing. I want to watch the whole Lord of the Rings extended version.  It's just, you want to do life big.  But what sevens have to learn is coming into rest  and allowing ourselves not to feel like we have to carry every plate, even if we did in childhood, even if we were

 

30:38

the kid like I was who had to help the parents, who had to put the tent up in the rain when your parents couldn't do it type of stories that most sevens have. It's important that we realize I'm an adult. I'm allowed to pause. I'm allowed to rest. I'm allowed to focus. And those things have gifted me to be able to have written the book you saw, other books. I've also got my next book coming in 2027. And it's neat to be able to say I can do hard things.

 

31:07

If I take my time, I can do them better yet.  But of course, sevens can struggle like type one with an inner critic where it's like, no, I need to be perfect. I have to keep running all day. And I think by the time you're in your thirties or so, I'm 46 almost. And quite honestly in my thirties, I fell flat because of course that just doesn't work for that long, right?  You have to stop at some point. Absolutely.  Yeah. So that's our sevens and

 

31:35

our eights,  just two more types, we're back into our one, eights and nines are our  body types. And I mentioned that ones needed that gut work. And that's the same thing our eights need is  to be able to digest  the frustration because they also want justice.  And unlike our heart types and our thinking types, the way they find their way in the world is through bringing justice and rightness.  so eights are scanning for that and they're

 

32:04

great at protecting others. They're strong  and they do not want to be overly vulnerable. I had an eight asked me a question the other day. My husband and I write mystery dinner games also just as a side gig and she was playing one of them and I was like neurotic for her. Like I was like, she's like, oh, I can't print it because my code expired. I'm like, here it is. If you need any help  started to go into that whole six thing.  And she's like,

 

32:28

I've got it. We're good.  And so I love that about our eights where they're just like, I'm good. You don't have to help me.  I'm not going to be vulnerable with you, but I might give you a little bit.  And so that is something that the more an eight feels safe, of course in a relationship and that's our job is to help them to feel safe and seen. You don't have to be just a leader. You're allowed to be in the relationship, not just over it. It's so beautiful for them. I know my late father was an eight and before he passed on,

 

32:58

He actually publicly told me, I'm sorry, I was such  a uh militant  general like in our family. I felt like that was the best way to raise you, but I've come to learn I could have been softer. And that was such a gift. know a lot of people don't get,  but it was neat because he had learned his Enneagram type and he was doing his work.  So I think our eights will always be strong to the end. He was such a hero by the way, even the way he passed on.

 

33:23

Belon, just like I'm living my life to the fullest, never told me he was passing on kind of a person like,  just, hey, how you doing, sweetie?  It's like, they are so strong for others. But what we can gift our eight clients is, wow, you are allowed to be loved too.  And we can see your vulnerability. If we don't get to see it, there's going to be some recklessness. Because the last thing I'll say about eight is  they can be lusty and passionate and prone to extreme anger when they're not healthy.

 

33:51

So, you know, sometimes I'm also working with eights having had not wanted to tell their family members or spouse, especially that they were having  these thoughts and feelings and vulnerabilities. And now they're in an affair because they bypass the emotional depths. So that's something eights can struggle with also. Yeah. And thank you for sharing about your dad. mean, I feel like that's such a good example where, you know, especially in that generation, especially men in that generation,  you know, like this feeling that

 

34:20

it's just right or wrong. And so there's a lot of energy of like either explaining why I'm right or just not looking into it too deeply if I feel like I'm wrong or something.  I think that with the Enneagram, like you said, like if someone like that can read their type and say, oh my gosh, like there's so many good things about who I am and it makes sense. And I can  also acknowledge these weaknesses that I have and it's okay.

 

34:48

It doesn't have to be that sort black and white right and wrong kind of thinking. It's so true. And I'm so grateful he said that too, but even to the end he was like, let's go to a basketball game. And he was on hospice. And I remember I was having my kids and I was like, I've got bronchitis coming on. And of course, in the thinking types, and he's like, come on, I'm dying. I want to go to my alma mater basketball game. Anyway, he took me instead to the gun range and archery and the democratic club and all these things.

 

35:14

We did have a good day, but he was like so annoyed that I wasn't strong enough to just do this with him who was dying.  And later I took all my nieces and nephews on both sides of the family to the basketball game  in homage. And we were just all like, wow, like we had a hero in the family. So  I do want people to know eights get the, they get the comment of being an eight hole, but they show us how it's done.

 

35:39

So  I'm telling you I have so many stories.  Okay now nines are a prolific type and so they are definitely last but not least nines are the peacemaker how many therapists are nines? Oh my gosh, probably half the listeners  because this is what  particularly couples therapists  because they love to create peace in systems and they're amazing at it. They're amazing at seeing  diplomacy on both sides

 

36:08

They can bring their calm and co-regulate their people.  And they take on such a thoughtfulness to them with everything. But remember, I said, eights,  nines, and ones are all part of that justice triad.  So what people often don't know with nines is they have a lot of opinions.  They care deeply about doing what's right.  And it will vary. Some nines are going to be conservative. Some are liberal, and et cetera, and so on.

 

36:33

nines are extremely justice oriented.  One of our daughters is a nine and she's like, you will be hearing from me every day a complaint about something in the world that wasn't fair. And so  all we want for our nines is to actually share their right actions, share their voices,  because unlike the ones in eight who feel so compelled to do it,  when nines get all the opinions of others, they can truly forget themselves, get lost in that.  And they can also fall asleep.

 

37:01

to even saying it again and feel like forget it must not have been important.  And so I just want to encourage everyone with your nine clients. And if that's you yourself, the biggest thing they can also do being another doing inhibited type  is they can get into action. Even a brisk walk a day can tremendously give them that empowerment of their voice. Or my daughter needed to learn, she needed espresso in the morning. It's like she's tired. And  that comes from carrying the thoughtfulness of others and being forgotten sometimes.  I can't tell you how many times

 

37:31

because she's now got her associate's degree, but how many times we had to fight for her. And now she's a singer at church. She's  just a prolific dancer, modern, every different type.  But people forget nines to the point that it's ridiculous. Like colleges losing their scores ridiculous.  So I've now, after living with one for so long, really get why they get forgotten. But when they rise up in their power,

 

37:56

People think they're eights, people like they think my daughter is not struggling at all. They don't know the story. So if you're a nine listening, no, you have so much power because not only do you have diplomacy, but you're the strong body type with a voice of care, justice, fairness,  and also things to learn. We don't want any types to think they're better than the others, but that's where I just want to land with these types is nines exhibit this beautiful ability to see all the types. We just don't want them to forget themselves.  And if they're partnered,

 

38:24

We want their partner to stay awake to their needs too, because not that nines aren't important, but their partners typically forget them. So it's important that the partner say, I was forgotten. And that's really hard for nines because they want the magical fairy tale we all want is that our partner would just know it and say, oh, I never forget you. And I will never forget you again. But when somebody is that peaceful and exuding that kind of calm vibe, they do get forgotten. It's not because they don't have worth.

 

38:54

I often tell my daughter, it's just you make the room so calm. People just love you so much. So you have to get out there and speak up again. So those are the nine types. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. And I was thinking, as you were saying that in that example, it would be important for a child as a nine to have parents who are sort of advocating for them or making sure that they have a voice or something. then, but then my mind went to, are we supposed to type kids when they're, when they're still children? Because I also think

 

39:22

Different childhood phases fit with different numbers, right? So  is my daughter a four or is she just a 15 year old girl? I'm not sure which one. What  would you say about um using it with children? I love that question.  it's when everyone started off with Enneagram almost 10 years ago, like modern people talking more about it. It was do not talk about this with kids until we realize, oh my goodness, we're losing some of the best things we could give our kids.

 

39:52

So talk about it with open hands and say, this may just be a developmental moment, but I have some good tips for you if you're stuck in this angsty space as a four in your melancholy. I  think that getting you active  and also me listening to you and spending time with you would be such a gift  because  knowing fours need quality time, what a gift to a parent to know that.

 

40:14

And it might not be something a melancholic four even knows for themselves, but you can try these things on for size. And two of my kids typed pretty early and knew it. And we said that like, it might not stick, but one of them still doesn't know what my 13 year old son, think he's, he thinks he's a seven, but my husband thinks he's a six and he's a bit of a piano genius and actor and that kind of personality with a lot of, you know, fast pace. he's like, I think I'm a seven dad. And we've kind of just allowed it to be, we'll see later. Yeah.

 

40:44

Yeah, that's a good way to look at it.  know, that whatever you're going through in your life during that time, you can sort of  see some of the  traits of a certain type and use it to kind of learn from that and then just be open to,  maybe this is why, maybe it's not, maybe I'll, as things continue to move forward, I'll learn more about myself. Yeah, exactly. And our kids are so grateful when we approach it like that, when we say, yeah, that's so fun. You're such a seven in that way.

 

41:12

My son said that while we were watching Into the Heights last night, he's like, mom, you and I love all the colorful things because  we're sevens. But he also like has been saying, I want time with just my dad. And I had a blast on my hiking trip and I never left so hard on a weekend.  So it's like he wants his soccer team and his dad and all this activity. So we're like, yeah, we see the fast moving seven in you. But I think when you know, Shane, you can say things like you don't have to carry the whole family. Like if you have some seven showing up in you like you do.

 

41:41

please know also that you don't have to  be the family security because he said to me once, for instance,  we were taking a walk around like a Panera Bread parking lot waiting for the girls. And he goes, I said, what were you doing? And he goes, I was just looking back to make sure there was no bad guys. And I was like, oh, I'm sure there's not, this is a nice place.  But he goes, mom, I always do that. Like you have no idea how often I'm checking for safety.

 

42:08

And it was like three years ago when he was about 10. So it just showed me like there's a hypervigilance that I need to know about. And I think it's that question you asked earlier. We could talk all day and I know we don't have that long, like  it's like, I remember being anxious when he was a baby and it was just a moment. My mom had just passed. There was so much going on and it's like, Oh, did his nervous system get a bit dysregulated and did he feel he had to take care of me?  And those are things that now I don't.

 

42:36

try to overanalyze, but I say to him like, Oh, like, let's just remember some tools for coping when we get anxious. And it just gives me that sense of, I'm glad I know he's a thinking type  so I can help him process.  Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And, uh, again, just sort of being curious. It's, it's not like we have, we don't have to figure it all out, but just sort of bringing curiosity to it. Like you said, like, you know, there's probably, there's some reason why

 

43:05

is the way he is  and  that it makes sense and that's okay and what can we learn about the situation. But I'm really curious,  I think people really wonder how can we think about and like you said I know we don't have a ton of time but how can we think about this in relationships? Like are there certain  numbers that are good partners for each other or not good partners for each other or just something to learn about every  configuration?

 

43:32

Oh, I'm so glad you did not leave this question on the table. This is rich for this pod. And I love to say, first and foremost, every couple pairing, there's 45 possibilities, has its strengths and areas for struggle. And in fact,  we create our own light together. That's one of the premises of my book is that,  you know, I had worked with a lot of twos with fives, and that was that heart type with the person who wants to pull away into thought.

 

43:57

And I saw these fives going out and serving their communities in ways that fives don't usually want to do.  And I saw these two sitting home instead of helping everyone, just sitting on with a book.  And I was seeing three different couples of those pairings at that time. And I'm like, wow, this pairing is  so  beautiful in the way that they keep their push-pull, pursuer distance are going.  They were so romantic because the five knew how to pull away and the two knew how to.

 

44:25

eventually get that nurture balanced. And  there were different iterations than I saw in, for instance, like an eight,  one couple, these two powerful justice types.  And so there's definitely differences, but as you heard me say, there's special gifts,  there's special lights that we each cast and there are special shadows.  So in the back of my book, I go through all the 45 possible pairings and the possible lights and shadows that each have and how to work through them in a general.

 

44:54

because of course we all need our own nuanced care.  But it is my most fascinating area to see.  And I would lastly say around this topic that there's a very common pairing out there, eights and nines, the powerful type with the peaceful type, because that powerful type sort of makes room for the nine's voice.  And they're both justice fighter.  And the nine just allows the eight to be who they are without making them be overly vulnerable.

 

45:20

And then there's some doozies of pairings where you're like, oh my gosh, like a two and a four together, two heart types can be so codependent if they're not healthy. But if they are, then of course that's not the issue. Right. That's so cool. So in your book, you go through every combination. Yes, I do. That's so cool. Yeah. It's so helpful to just, even for myself to go through our one seven pairing.

 

45:47

And it's been so healing for our marriage to have, we do different therapies at different iterations of our marriage when we need a little touch up. But  to do the Enneagram was such a game changer for us because we each were in that fundamental attribution error I talked about earlier where I was like, ah well, I'm so joyful and I can do so much. And like, what's wrong with you on being so mean? And he's like,  I see you doing this as cutting corners and you're too scattered. And  you know, just,  I feel like I'm the right one.

 

46:14

And then when he learned he was the one and I was the seven, it was like, oh my gosh, we have our shadows here. This is embarrassing. And so it gave us this platform to  be on that even playing field, which I think honestly, our couples need when we help them is they need to know it's not just your spouse irritating you. It's both of you needing better self care,  better windows of tolerance  and a better management of your gifts. Right? Yeah, that's amazing. I feel like I should tell you that

 

46:43

I'm also a seven. At least that's what I've tested. I test very high in the nine as well, but I thought that too. was like wondering if you were a nine and I love that you're a seven and a nine. And then my wife is also a seven. I feel like we have, I see it. I definitely see it, but I also feel like there are a lot of differences between us. it's interesting.

 

47:11

exist in the world in that way, but to both be to have differences in our personality as well. Yeah, that is thank you for sharing that. was curious because I was like, he's got such a nine in the sense of the peace you always bring to your show.  But the problem solving you're doing in the way you're a little more assertive with it would lend itself toward one of the aggressive assertive types like myself, the three, seven or eight.

 

47:38

And some people don't like the word aggressive at all. And they're like, no, it's assertive, it's independent. And that's fine too. But  I can see that edge in you. And so I love that you are able to say, there's a lot of seven in me, also some nine.  The more you get into Enneagram, you actually usually identify with a few types. Like I consider myself a seven, four, nine tritype.  And that's a different term that some people would say, that's just too much and that's okay.  But for your wife and you even as...

 

48:05

potentially two sevens as your lead types,  like we said, not for today, but we each have instincts that go with it  that make us even a little different. Somebody might be socially wired, somebody might be self-preserving wired or sexual wired,  and those make us just a little different in culture. So that's part of it. Plus we have other cultural  and perhaps other overlays. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you can get really sophisticated with this.

 

48:31

And I've heard people use the term wings, like I'm a five with something wing. mean, is that  just like uh another strong influential number in your personality when they say that? Yeah. And if you see the enneagram on the diagram or even if you pictured it on a chart just as a ruler, just for simplicity, like what number is next to you? And the reason you would want to use a circle is because nine and one are not next to each other.

 

49:00

on  a ruler, but they  in the enneagram they are. So you could be a one wing nine or you could be a one wing two like my husband.  But the goal would be that you would balance out your wings. So some enneagram specialists like B Chestnut, she's like, I don't like the term wings because I want people to access both.  Whereas I find them, I think for couples helpers, we're looking for any help we can get.  And so if we find out our, you know, client is  a seven wing

 

49:28

eight versus a seven wing six, it gives us a lot of information like, oh, they're not only joyful, but they're powerful, or they're not only joyful, but they're probably leaning into  negative storytelling more and neuroticism more.  And so these little pieces gift us very quickly. And we know sometimes couples are in such a difficult state when they come to us, the more assessing we can do about what might be their deeper stories, the better. my gosh, I

 

49:55

This is so great. Just talking to you makes me want to learn more and more.  Can you tell everyone about your podcasts and your book so that if they do want  to keep learning, they can go to those places or whatever else you want to mention? Yeah. Oh, perfect. Thank you. I'm at Enneagram and marriage.com  and you can find my book there, my podcast. I have a freebies page. You can find courses. We do coaching. I have counselors also on staff.

 

50:24

You could become an Enneagram and Marriage certified coach  because I also have a video course for you that I also teach live in January and Thursday mornings if anyone's wanting to do that.  And we just have a lot of resources. I even have pairing guides if you don't want the whole book, but you just want to buy  your pairing like a two with a six.  We have guides for each type in addition to the book. And then the other place I would say to find me besides the website, which leads to the podcast too,  is

 

50:53

my Instagram because I do spend several times a week there giving posts and it has added up to probably a thousand different posts over the last year. So I would love for people to find me at Enneagram and marriage at Instagram also. Are you posting like three times a day? Did you say in the last year? Oh no, I'm sorry. mean like three times. Oh in the last few years? Yeah, few years. see. see. Yeah, that would be crazy.  That would be type seven hyperactivity, right?

 

51:23

But the Instagram is Enneagram in Marriage as well? Enneagram and Marriage. Okay. And then the book is Enneagram in Marriage. Yes. Yep. If you can find that at Amazon or on your website or wherever. Yep. My website, Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, wherever you buy books. And there's an audio and Kindle version as well. Nice. Great. Well, this has been so great talking to you, Christa. Thank you so much. Thank

 

51:53

It's been amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah, I've learned so much and I can see how helpful this would be for therapists, even just to have a little bit of background information about,  or even if they're not an expert yet about it, they could have the couples take one of the tests to find out what they are and just sort of just bring some curiosity to like, hey, what can we learn from this? Does this feel like it fits for you?  starting up a conversation that'll be helpful for people.

 

52:22

Absolutely. And it can be fun to have that and just to respect them if they don't want to use it too. That's always so important. So I love just adding one more tool belt. Thank you so much. One more tool in the tool belt for all the listeners. Yeah, totally. All right. Thank you, Christa.  I'll talk to you again sometime. Yeah, take care. Thank you, Shane. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

52:50

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.  Visit HelloAlma.com  or click on the link in the show notes to learn more.  And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel and this is The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!

 

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