273: Working with Infidelity in Couples Therapy with Shane Birkel

Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch! This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

In this solo episode, Shane talks working with infidelity in couples therapy. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots, and Follow and leave a 5-star review.

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• Show Notes
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• Transcript

The Couples Therapist Couch 273: Working with Infidelity in Couples Therapy with Shane Birkel

This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

Get the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

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In this solo episode, Shane talks working with infidelity in couples therapy. Hear why every infidelity case is different, how to initiate the work with your clients, whether it’s appropriate to give a timeline, why the guilt is so crucial, and what to coach each partner to do. Here's a small sample of what you'll hear in this episode:

• The crisis phase: first 2-3 months of trauma
• Navigating complicated situations
• Technology boundaries and phone access
• Why words alone aren't enough to rebuild trust
• Answering logistical vs. emotional questions

 

Show Notes

• 273: Working with Infidelity in Couples Therapy with Shane Birkel
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [1:02] Introduction to working with infidelity cases
• [1:31] Defining infidelity: from broken agreements to affairs
• [2:30] The spectrum of betrayal in relationships
• [4:27] Common reactions: worthiness and protective anger
• [6:27] Assessing commitment levels in both partners
• [9:45] Best case scenario: remorseful partner willing to work
• [11:12] The challenging dynamic: checked-out affair partner
• [13:37] When the betrayed partner recognizes their role
• [15:00] Setting expectations: 1-2 years of recovery work
• [16:30] The crisis phase: first 2-3 months of trauma
• [18:09] Creating safety: initial agreements and boundaries
• [19:27] Ending contact with the affair partner
• [21:12] Workplace affairs: navigating complicated situations
• [23:37] Transparency and accountability measures
• [26:32] Technology boundaries and phone access
• [29:21] This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more
• [30:20] Negotiating reasonable boundaries and agreements
• [31:47] The core work: validation and healthy shame
• [33:47] Why we don't have affairs: understanding motivation
• [35:01] Healthy anger vs. emotionally abusive behavior
• [36:28] Why words alone aren't enough to rebuild trust
• [38:06] Showing up with validation months later
• [40:04] Timing matters: when to address relationship issues
• [42:33] The "why" question: approaching with caution
• [44:33] Reframing questions as vulnerable statements
• [46:01] Answering logistical vs. emotional questions
• [47:57] Deep family of origin work: timing and readiness
• [50:24] Healthy shame vs. toxic shame in the involved partner
• [52:22] Final thoughts: attunement to each unique situation
• This episode is brought to you by Alma. Visit https://helloalma.com/dg/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=privatepractice to learn more

 

What is The Couples Therapist Couch?

This podcast is about the practice of Couples Therapy. Many of the episodes are interviews with leaders in the field of Relationships. The show is meant to help Therapists and Coaches learn how to help people to deepen their connection, but in the process it explores what is most needed for each of us to love, heal, and grow. Each week, Shane Birkel interviews an expert in the field of Couples Therapy to explore all about the world of relationships and how to be an amazing therapist.

Learn more about the Couples Therapy 101 course: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/

Find out more about the Couples Therapist Inner Circle: https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/inner-circle-new

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00

The problem with that is that the other person thought that they could trust their word before, then they had an affair, and now the other person doesn't know what they can trust anymore.

 

00:17

The Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy. And now,  your host,  Shane Birkel.

 

00:33

Hey everybody. Welcome back to The Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Birkel, and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy.  Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the goal of this podcast is to help you learn how to more effectively work with couples and possibly even learn how to have a better relationship. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

 

01:02

Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks. Visit HelloAlma.com or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. All right. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Inner Circle webinar. I'm going to  be teaching about infidelity for this session. I know it's a broad topic, but I'm going to get into a lot of specifics about it. I hope it's uh helpful for everybody. First of all, every situation is different.

 

01:31

even just defining what infidelity actually is because, you know, when we think about infidelity, we think about someone having a sexual affair with another person typically, but it can also include, you know, many other varied actions that a partner can take to betray the other partner. And I do think there is a difference.  I mean, we can also talk about broken agreements.

 

02:01

Although I wouldn't categorize that in the same thing as infidelity, but it is a betrayal. could be a betrayal on some level. You know, even if I say, hey, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to meet up with you somewhere and then I'm half an hour late, that's a broken agreement that the other person has the right to feel betrayed about. And again, so that wouldn't be on the same level as, you know, having a

 

02:30

with someone else, but there are similarities  and I'm just sort of beginning the conversation.  You know, sort of introducing the idea of this spectrum of. Any anything that you do that breaks in agreement with your partner is in some way an infidelity.  And I say that because like if I'm if I'm a half hour late, if I made an agreement with my partner and I'm running a half hour late. It's important for me not to try to justify my behavior.

 

03:01

Just because I want to sweep it under the rug and I want to things to go back to feeling peaceful and going back to normal And part of that is I want my partner to feel better But part of that's my own guilt that I did something wrong as long as they're feeling bad about it have to remember that I'm made a mistake So this is where you know, even if it's a betrayal that's a broken agreement. That is I was a half hour late

 

03:29

It can be really helpful to do the some kind of repair process. And again, hopefully somebody would be able to get over that much more quickly than a sexual affair, which is about some, you know, a partner betraying the trust and having, you know, a relationship with somebody outside of their partner. So I'm going to talk about the more serious cases of infidelity, the ones we think about.

 

03:58

You know,  the ones that I think a lot of us, if you're working with couples, probably, you know, it's a pretty high percentage of the cases that we work with have experienced some level of infidelity where there has been the secretive, you know,  having sexual relations  or it could be an emotional affair, emotional relations with another person that,  and there's something about that that, you know,

 

04:27

that's very different than just being late  or other, uh you know, breaking agreements where there's another  person involved. So, so a lot of times in these cases,  it's going the partner who's been betrayed is going to question themselves and say, is there something that I'm not doing or something that I am doing wrong that's creating this situation that my, you know, does my partner even love me anymore?

 

04:57

it does my partner even want to be with me anymore? So those are some of the first questions that come up. I mean, as you get into it, you know, usually  when I'm working with the fairs, the person who's been betrayed is going to deal with all kinds of feelings of,  of their own worthiness. And as a protection of that, a lot of times people will go into anger. I would say,

 

05:27

There's appropriate anger in these situations. There should be some level of anger. And there's also, I think, more of a protective anger that's coming from that place of like, I feel so unworthy, so I'd rather focus on punishing my partner. Again,  especially in the beginning phases of working with  an infidelity case, I validate the anger a lot.

 

05:56

Like, like, of course, that person is going to be angry. There was an agreement that was broken. That was goes to the foundation of the whole relationship. And if it is like a sexual affair, the person who had the affair is willing to sort of put everything on the line, put everything in jeopardy in order to do that.  And, you know, sometimes it's irreparable. Sometimes these relationships don't end up working out. But

 

06:27

And that's one of the things that one of the first things you want to do  when you're working with an infidelity case is determine sort of the level of commitment to  the relationship by each partner. The best case scenario when you're working with infidelity is that the person who had the affair feels very remorseful about what they did. It's better

 

06:56

If it's just like a one time thing that happened instead of like, you know, they had a two year relationship with somebody that was in secret for all that time. So,  you know, they made a mistake. Uh, it was a one time thing, best case scenario. They're coming into couples therapy and the person who had the affair is saying, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I did this. I want more than anything to  save my relationship with my

 

07:26

you know, my partner,  you know, my spouse or my committed partner. And that's where you're starting because then you have,  it makes the process easier because they're likely to have a willingness to  learn what needs to happen in order to recover and grow and do the work. it's, cause that's the thing about these cases. It's, it's a lot of hard work. And that's another thing I tell people like,

 

07:54

It's normal for a fair recovery to last, you know, one year, two years, three years. I've heard people say five years and like, it's sort of like, are you defining success or how are you defining the end of the recovery process? Right. Because in other ways it could last a lifetime just like any injury.

 

08:20

But anyway, my hope for people is usually that within a year or two, that you're getting back to a pretty good place,  right? You've done a lot of repair work. I will say even  couples who do the work, who are relatively healthy people, they do the hard work.  Even after only one year, sometimes it still feels like, if you're still experiencing your first birthday,

 

08:49

since it happened or your first anniversary since it happened or your first Christmas since it happened, right? Like those tend to be like particularly hard for people. know, so if it's been like 10 months, you haven't gotten through all those milestones in the year where you're like, you know, oh, this is our first Christmas since you had the affair with that person, right? Like that's a normal experience that people have. So.

 

09:16

I tell people that right up front. This is going to take a ton of work. ah It's likely gonna,  you you're gonna need at least a year to two years of pretty  consistent therapy uh in order to  get through this situation. So  I went off on a little tangent there back to best case scenario, person who had the affair is all in to do the work. There's a question of

 

09:45

the person who's been betrayed, are they willing  to do the work, right? So there could be cases where they feel  incredibly hurt, but they want the relationship to work more than anything. There might also be cases where the other person had the affair and maybe that was kind of like the last straw. And the person has been betrayed as sort of like, you know what?  I don't even know if I want to be in this relationship.

 

10:15

That's going to be a  much more difficult case to work with because you have to establish some kind of leverage for them just to even kind of check out  whether they're willing to do the work that's necessary. The other dynamic ah that I haven't mentioned yet would be  the person who had the affair. I've seen this a few times where they're actually the one

 

10:43

who's been  asking  for relationship change in their relationship for a long period of time,  let's say for a couple of years, they've been telling their partner, like, this isn't working,  we need to go to couples therapy. Maybe their partner's refused going to couples therapy or refused to listen or refused to do some kind of work. And they're just sort of feeling super alone in their relationship, super unheard.

 

11:12

perspective hasn't been heard. If they start distancing themselves over the course of two, three, four years, something like that, then all of sudden they're like checked out of their relationship and they end up having an affair. And then if they come into couples therapy, it actually creates uh a really difficult dynamic to work with because the person who had the affair, that's the person who actually usually needs to do a lot more repair work.

 

11:40

And they're already checked out of their relationship and they're sort of feeling like,  my partner hasn't been there for me for the last three years. I'm not really willing to  bend over backwards to listen to how hurt they are. So that's going to be a really tough case. Now I have worked with that and I can speak to that a little bit, but, um, you know, that's actually probably the exception to the rule. mean, I mean, in those cases, sadly,

 

12:09

The affair is usually the last straw and the relationship just kind of fizzles out from there because there hasn't been a lot of connection for a long period of time. And I say that that's, I could come back to that if we have time at the end, but that is kind of the exception to the rule. Usually if there are people who are willing to come to couples therapy, especially make a plan to do that regularly, usually there's some level of

 

12:38

both of them wanting to make their relationship work. Actually, I'll just say it really quickly instead of coming back to it. When you have a partner who feels like they haven't been happy in their relationship for several years and they're the one who has the affair,  there's been one time where I made that work in couples,  I didn't make it, I mean, where it worked in couples therapy because the other partner

 

13:07

actually recognize the reality of that truth. And they're like, yeah, it makes sense that you had an affair. I haven't been there for you for the last three years. So that's actually different than how would usually work with an affair situation. But that's how we ended up being able to work through that, through it in that case. And that's what I think would almost be necessary if there's any hope or any chance for that type of relationship dynamic. Now,

 

13:37

Let's go back  to the first one I mentioned where the person who had the affair is super remorseful, right? And they realize what they did was wrong and they have a desire to save the relationship. If that's the case, I mean, that's what you want in therapy. And that's what I'm going to talk mostly about. That's mostly the type of couple you're going to be working with. Because if you think about it,

 

14:05

The person who had the affair is already over the relationship. They're not going to be in therapy. If the person who  was betrayed decides that it was too hurtful for them, they don't want to do the work, then  that relationship is over and they're not going to be coming to couples therapy. So  if you're seeing them in couples therapy, either they haven't decided whether they're willing to work on it yet, meaning there's still hope that they will.

 

14:33

or you're in the work and you're in the process. And hopefully that time period where they're deciding whether they want to work on it won't take too long, right? That's like a discernment counseling type of situation where in discernment counseling, they say, you know, give it between one to five sessions to help them determine whether they're going to commit to doing the work. And a lot of times that makes sense.

 

15:00

in a fair recovery type work. You want to make sure that both partners are willing to do the work. And that's where I'm going to talk about  how long this is going to take, how much work it's going to be, and really getting them to commit to  something substantial so that they sort of have that mindset going into it this is going to be hard. And one of the things about that is that it normalizes when they're struggling through it along the way,

 

15:30

It normalizes that  and that's one thing that's helpful just all along the way when you're working with like recovering from an affair like  normalizing, normalizing, normalizing. They're going to there. Maybe both of them, but particularly the person who was betrayed.  You know, it's a hugely traumatizing event. You know, it's like going through a car act.  It's traumatizing in the way that that it is to go through a car accident.

 

16:00

where  you feel so insecure and you're questioning everything, you feel like the rug's been pulled out from under you, you can't trust anything. This is like the person that you could trust. This is like the person you were committed to. This is like the thing you could count on more than anything else. And all of a sudden that's taken away from you. So it can impact not just your relationship and your family and the obvious things, it could affect your whole

 

16:30

perspective of reality. And it makes people's lives very difficult for a while. So I normalize that. I let people know like that's a normal, this is a trauma, this is a traumatic experience. It's gonna take some time to heal, to put the puzzle pieces back together, to make sense of things. I sometimes give, I hate to promise

 

17:00

like certain timelines, I'm  very careful about that or to get people's hopes up for certain timelines. But this  is situation where I do think it's helpful to give people a timeline. And this is how I say it. I'll say something like, you know, you could feel completely overwhelmed for the next two to three months, right? Like this is the crisis phase.

 

17:30

One important thing about that is that it isn't like the reality that you're gonna have to live with for the next 50 years This isn't a baseline for your new reality. This is a crisis phase the first steps when you're in a crisis phase  for these two to three months is how do we Get back to some level of stability how do we get back to some level of safety and

 

17:57

The betrayed partner's safety and security is the number one priority in the situation. And I'm open to any like, you want to be creative in this.

 

18:09

You know, you want to bring a lot of curiosity about what they need. Like, do you need to move out into separate living spaces? Do you need to have separate bedrooms for some period of time? Do you need to,  you know, have a lot of emotional space for yourself  where this is probably true, where the person who had the affair, like it's not the time.

 

18:33

where they can bring up what they're upset about and what's going on for them. Like for two to three months at least, and that could be longer,  like we'll check in in two or three months, but you still might need more time.  For at least that much time, it's sort of like all about the betrayed partner and making sure they feel safe and like getting really clear.

 

18:59

on what the agreements are. And one of the first things you might have to address is,  is that a fair partner still  in  the situation, right? It's like, are you still texting with them? Are you still like messaging with them in any way? Are you still talking to them? You know, in some cases, like it's someone that person works with and they're still seeing them at work. In some cases it's.

 

19:27

someone they see on a regular basis for other reasons, it's really important to determine, to make an agreement about what, like, how can the person who had the affair give reassurance to  the partner who was betrayed, right? So  I've had a lot of situations where I've coached the person who had the affair and said, listen, you have to end it.

 

19:56

There's not a reality I can imagine  where they can keep having  contact with that other person. You know, I've had people in therapy, which kind of surprised me, I guess, who  just had this expectation like, oh yeah, I'm gonna end the affair. It's totally over, but they're still my friend, right? We're still just gonna text sometimes or, you know, go to lunch  and it's no big deal, cause we're just friends now.

 

20:25

And to me,  that is not going to work. If you, if you know, I've talked to a lot of betrayed partners  and that is just not okay for them in any  realm of the universe. So  I think that's important to, you know, that's sort of a standard that, that I expect. one of my expectations is like, you are going to cut off contact with this person now.

 

20:54

There are some exceptions. This is a small percentage of the cases, but it is. It has happened a few times with people I've worked with where they are.  They uh are working with the person. Their job is with that person.

 

21:12

That's a little bit more complicated. There's a question, you know, this is, again, it's not for us as a therapist to tell them what to do, but you want to get really interested and curious with the betrayed partner and ask them what do they need,  right, to feel safe? Do they want their partner to leave their job if that's the only way that, like,  you know, they won't see that person?

 

21:40

And again, there's different  every situation is different, right? I've had people where they were like, OK, I'm able to get transferred to a different department, so we'll still be in the same building, but we'll no longer have to communicate with each other about work stuff. We'll no longer have to go to meetings in the same place.  And the partner was OK with that. mean, they didn't feel super comfortable, but they

 

22:10

were willing to agree that that's how they were going to set it up. I've had other situations where the partner said, I need you to leave your job. That's the only way I can do this work and feel safe and stay with you in the relationship. So  there was, you know, I remember a specific case where the partner left their job. They got a new job.  I've had other cases where, you know, they only had like a couple of years left till retirement.

 

22:36

It was a small office. They had to be in contact with the other person pretty frequently about business stuff. And they stayed in their job and the other partner was willing to agree to that because it would affect their reality financially as well if they had to their job. like I said, in this case, it was someone who is like a little bit older heading toward retirement. It would have been really hard for them to start somewhere new.

 

23:06

At that point, only had they wanted to get through a couple more years in order to get their pension or whatever it was. The other partner agreed that they were willing to  do the repair relationship, repair work, even if that partner stayed working with that person. I will say in that case, it was very it was much more difficult. But in a lot of these situations, it might be important like you want to make sure that you're not assuming anything.

 

23:37

Like let's say that the person who had the affair comes into couples therapy and they said, yeah, you know, I'm not talking to that person anymore. I'm just going to focus on working on my relationship with my partner. And, uh, I don't want to be in a relationship with that other person anymore at all. And I would be a little bit more curious and specific and say, how did you end that relationship with that person?

 

24:05

Cause I've had to coach a lot of people on, you have to tell them. And again, you don't, you don't want the person who had the affair to continue having some kind of ongoing conversations with this person. You want it to be short, really brief and concise and clear, but you want, you want them to  send a message and say something like, Hey, this is completely over. I just want to make it clear.

 

24:35

I'm not going to be able to talk to you anymore. I'm working on things with my wife or my partner, whatever,  and this is over. You know, again, it can be simple and brief and like you can  make sure that the betrayed partner approves of the message, but you want that it to be clear. And then I've had a lot of cases where they send that message and then.

 

25:03

You know they they erase the information from the phones or they block the person or whatever? tech, you know There's all kinds of technology that I don't even I'm not even aware of but like how do you remove yourself from those places where you can communicate with that person to make sure that it There's that safety other logistical agreements in these cases is like is the affair partner willing to

 

25:32

Show their phone right? Are they willing to have some level  of? I don't know what you would call it.  I mean, I mean obviously it's accountability, but it's more than just accountability. It's actually like letting your partner. I guess it's transparency like letting your partner completely see. Your phone records or your  social media messages, text messages, everything so that they can.

 

26:02

Verify that you're not talking to this person. There might be some period of time where this is really helpful I don't think it should last forever  but some people find it to be really helpful  and uh Most of fair partners are willing and able to do that again now every situation is different I have had a fair partners who you know have a huge uh theme  in their life of

 

26:32

privacy and they have been really upset about Those things you got you got to work with it. You got to work with the people you're working with, right? You got to come up with agreements that work for both of them But but I mean part of this is empowering the betrayed partner along the way like if you have the Involved partner also the person who had the affair also the involved partner if they're super unwilling

 

27:00

Um, and inflexible  and they're being rigid  about what they're willing to do and they're not being super openhearted about it. I would really continue to empower the betrayed partner in a way that is sort of like. Let like, I mean, as a therapist, again, I'm trying not to bring judgment or influence the situation. I'm trying to let people make their own decisions, but I started feeling protective of that.

 

27:30

person who's been betrayed. And I start, know,  if you're, if you get the sense that the involved partner  is, has some  narcissistic tendencies  or they're controlling  or, know, it's sort of one of those dynamics where they always kind of do whatever they want.  And the  betrayed partner is more of like, I'm just trying to always make my partner happy. And I'm so afraid they're going to leave me. I'm willing to sort of forgive anything that they do.

 

27:59

Like that's an important dynamic to recognize  and to begin to work on the betrayed partner really valuing themselves, really having a voice.  And part of that is being willing to leave their relationship if it's not healthy for them.  And those can be really difficult situations. But if I have enough of that energy from the betrayed partner,

 

28:27

then I can, you know, along the way I can look at the involved partner and I can say, hey, listen, it's not right or wrong. You know, you don't have to show them all your text messages. We can talk about making a compromise on that. But listen, if you're not willing to  be open about some of this stuff, I'm afraid like this relationship is gonna continue to feel really hard or your partner is gonna end up not.

 

28:54

wanting to continue to put the work in if you're not willing to do some of these basic things. So those are important conversations to have with people. Building a private practice can be challenging. Filing all of the right paperwork is time consuming and tedious. And even after you're done, it can take months to get credentialed and start seeing clients. That's why Alma makes it easy and financially rewarding to accept insurance.

 

29:21

When you join ALMA, you can get credentials within 45 days and access enhanced reimbursement rates with major payers. They also handle all of the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submissions and guarantee payment within two weeks of each appointment. Plus, when you join ALMA, you'll get access to time-saving tools for intakes, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes, and more in their included platform. ALMA helps you spend less time on administrative work

 

29:50

and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit helloalma.com or click the link in the show notes to learn more. You know, I had a case where there was  a somebody,  you know,  they had had an affair. Let's say, let's say I'm making this up. They had had an affair on the South part of town. Their partner said like, I never want you to go to the South part of town again. Right. So that was like, that's unrealistic.

 

30:20

In where they were living, it's like the involved partner was going to have to travel to this part of town once in a while just for normal stuff because they live in the town. It's like so. It might be. You're going to have to help people sort of navigate these conversations. There's no exact right or wrong, but you want to make it reasonable and you want to focus on giving the reassurance and.

 

30:49

oh creating the safety for the betrayed partner  as much as possible. But there's  all these logistics and agreements are super important, especially in the beginning phases to create that safety. Now. We haven't even gotten to what the work looks like yet. Again, like. Well, let me lay it out. Every situation is different, but there are some common themes.

 

31:19

and dynamics that show up again and again and again. Oftentimes, so I'll say oftentimes, what the work is, and this is an over, this is a very simplified way of saying it as a starting point. Oftentimes, what the work is, it's really about the  betrayed partner uh being able to express

 

31:47

what's going on for them, how they're feeling, talking about their hurt, and for the involved partner to create space for that, to be the listener, so to speak, to  validate, to ah go into their own healthy shame about what happened. As they witnessed their partner's hurt,

 

32:16

that they're going to go into their own guilt and healthy shame. That's different than toxic shame. Or you could use guilt and shame. Guilt is healthy, shame is toxic. You could use it like that. That's the same thing as the distinction between healthy shame and toxic shame. But anyway, that person's of healthy guilt about what they did, that's important for their partner to see.

 

32:41

The pain of that guilt is part of what will motivate them not to have an affair again.  Oftentimes the question is not why did you have an affair? The question is why do we not have affairs? Right? Like it's easy to answer why do you want to have an affair? I mean, it's exciting. It makes you feel like someone is attracted to you. It makes you feel like you have this whole other thing going like.

 

33:11

You can all think of many reasons why someone might want to have an affair. The reason why we don't have an affair for most of us  is because I don't want to do something that's hurtful to my partner. I don't want to break commitments that I've made.  I don't want to  lose the healthy family life that I have. And so  when someone feels the guilt of how much they hurt someone else,

 

33:40

That's part of the motivating force for why you would never want to do this again.

 

33:47

And you will see  betrayed partners often going into their anger and getting really, really angry and frustrated and almost try almost it's almost like they're trying to punish their partner. The punishment is a twisted form of  of  what they want to feel as empathy. It's a twisted form of seeking empathy. Right. Like they're trying to punish their partner and make them feel as bad as they feel so that their partner understands how

 

34:16

much they're hurting. And on a subconscious level, what they're trying to create is that feeling of guilt that will motivate the other person not to ever do it again.

 

34:32

but we have to help people do it in a healthy way, which is that I encourage anger, but I don't encourage abusive language, emotionally abusive behavior, uh anything like that, right? So even if you have been betrayed, which is an emotionally  abusive  act on the person who had the affair, I mean, by the person who had the affair, even if that happens,

 

35:01

Like two wrongs don't make a right. Right? The person who's been betrayed,  I don't allow them to be emotionally abusive with their words toward the other person because I don't allow anybody to do that to each other. I don't think it's ever healthy for relationships. No matter what the other person has done for you. Healthy boundaries is a totally different thing. It's about the betrayed person expressing from a,  like feeling safe enough.

 

35:30

to express from a place of vulnerability all of the hurt and sadness  and anger, they can express anger that's going on for them and for  the person who had the affair to  create space for that and safety for that so that the person feels validated. Now it's not gonna happen just one time and then everything's all better. Like I said, this could take a year.

 

35:58

But that is at the basis of what is  what you're striving for most of the time in most of the conversations you're having with people. Now, for the person who had the affair, the involved partner, a lot of times they want more than anything to for the other  person, to feel better. They want to  forget about it.

 

36:28

They wanna tell the partner, listen,  in my mind, I'm over it. I don't want anything to do with that person. I just wanna go back to being in our relationship together. I think you're great. I love you.  I only care about you.  And I want us to move on in peace and harmony and love. But the problem with that is that

 

36:56

The other person thought that they could trust their word before, then they had an affair, and now the other person doesn't know what they can trust anymore. So it's going to take  actions more than words, and there's no way that the betrayed partner is going to know what's actually going on in the mind of the involved partner. So no matter how many times they say that,

 

37:25

And I'm not saying they should stop, they should stop saying it because it's probably good for them to keep ah reminding the other person how much they love them and care about them. But it's not just going to go away just because they say  that it's over. ah And so there has to be a lot of acceptance and understanding for the betrayed person's experience. Even if it doesn't make sense to the involved partner.

 

37:51

Even if they don't understand why, would you know it could be eight months later.  Why are you still getting so upset?  Just because we heard a song on the radio that reminded you of the situation.

 

38:06

So  we really want to coach the involved partner not to be dismissive and minimizing and try to brush it under the rug, right? What we want to coach them to do  is when they hear the song on the radio or they're watching a movie and there's an affair situation that comes on, and let's say it is eight months later after it happened, that they're the one who says, hey, are you doing okay? Is it hard for you to see that?

 

38:36

I'm so sorry again about what I did, right? That they're showing up in a way that's validating, that's open, that's willing, you know, willing to be accepting  of their partner's experience and emotions. That is the energy that's going to hopefully, in a lot of cases, make the betrayed partner begin to feel safe and begin to feel like we're rebuilding the trust.

 

39:06

Right? Like there's some situations where the betrayed partner has reported, you know, after, after several months, like they can, they just feel a difference in the emotional energy. Like they, they're building back the trust because their, their partner is showing up in a way that's different than they were before. The other thing that sometimes happens is that, you know, one person has an affair. I want to emphasize the fact.

 

39:36

that what's gonna happen is that the involved partner is gonna wanna bring up other stuff, right? So the betrayed partner is super hurt and it's obvious, right? And the involved partner could say, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I know what I did was totally wrong. So sorry about your feelings. But let me tell you everything that was going wrong in their relationship that led up to me wanting to have an affair.

 

40:04

And if you do that too, if you move to that too quickly,  it creates a uh problem where, you know, both people are trying to be speakers and no one's really listening. we really have, you know, sometimes I tell them like, we're not going to be able to make it about what you think is wrong for months, right? We really have to, now, in some,

 

40:30

betrayed partners are capable of some of those types of conversations. You have to read the room as a therapist, but even  going session by session, let's say it's four or five months  after they started working in couples therapy, they're  coming through the crisis phase, it's feeling easier. You still have to be very sensitive to the betrayed partner's experience and still make sure even like,

 

40:59

the first half of the session, we're focusing on them and like, are you feeling like you're getting what you need and talk about how you've been feeling this week and what's coming up for you and what was hurtful for you and blah, blah. And then it's sort of like, if they feel heard and understood, sometimes they can, for the second half of the session, get to a place where they're like, okay, now I can listen to the other partner.  If the person who had the affair wants to talk about

 

41:29

I totally understand. It was totally wrong that I had the affair.

 

41:36

But can we talk about how you were making agreements and then you weren't following through on them and I was feeling hurt and I didn't know how to talk to you about it. Can we get into some of that? Right. So that would be now we're making it about the involved partners experience and you sort of have to figure out when you know and it's probably going to be months down the road.

 

42:03

when the betrayed partner is ready to begin to have some of those conversations. Cause that's all true as well, but you don't want that to come in too early or it's just going to feel off. It's going to feel like it's not, you know, the therapy isn't working. One of the questions the betrayed partner often asks is why, why did this happen? Why did you do this? How could you do this? And

 

42:33

I always tell people to be careful about that. There's  usually not a really good answer for that. When we're asking why did they have an affair, to me,

 

42:48

The answer to that involves  some sort of deep, uh you know, family of origin therapy for the person who had the affair to deeply understand what makes them tick. So  that could be part of it at some point, but I think you really, as a therapist, you really have to understand, like help the people understand why you're doing what you're doing, right? Like,

 

43:18

If they come in for the first session, right, and they just found out about the affair a week ago and you start doing intensive, deep therapy with the person who had the affair, it's going to, it's going to feel confusing. got it. You got to establish some level of safety and security before you do that. Now I'll often talk to the betrayed partner and I'll, and I'll explain. Like, do you, if you want to understand why they did this,

 

43:48

That's going to be like we're gonna have to come from a place of compassion and understanding for their reality and their experience. That's different than what would be at the service of you and what you need. Right, so. I often encourage the person who's been betrayed to talk about what they're making up in their head. This is.

 

44:13

you know how I feel this is what the story I'm making up in my mind about what's going on because then the other person's job is not to answer the question of why it's it's to validate what the betrayed partners making up in their head. Right. So for example.

 

44:33

Like if the betrayed partner says, why did, why did you do this? I feel like it's because you don't love me anymore. What the  involved partner might say is I do love you. I'm so sorry that I did what I did, which is a nice thing to say, but it it's kind of invalidating  of the betrayed partners statement and experience. So again, what I want to coach

 

45:02

the betrayed partner to do  is to say,  I feel so hurt by what you did. What I make up in my head is that you don't even love me and you don't even care about this relationship. And then I can coach the involved partner to say, it totally makes sense that you would go to that place in your mind. I get it. I was willing to put everything on the line. That was really insensitive of me.

 

45:32

Right, so they're moving into  the ability to validate, right? once. You'll notice oftentimes in these cases, once the betrayed partner starts asking questions that they want answers to, it starts getting very murky. And there could be some, you know, if it's logistical questions like hey, where were you on this date?  When you told me you were going out with friends, is that what really happened right? And then.

 

46:01

The other partner could say, no, I lied to you. was actually going out with the affair partner. And part of that is okay. It's helping the betrayed partner sort of put back their reality, put the pieces back together  and  make sense of like what had happened during all those times that the affair was going on. So some of that can be helpful. I recommend people do that. I tell people, try to save that for when you're in couples therapy. So you could have the guidance of the therapist to do that.

 

46:31

What will happen is like sometimes the betrayed partner will have like a hundred questions and they'll ask over and over and over. And it's like, they're looking for more emotional type answers. You know, like  when you were  having sex with the other person, were you even thinking about me and the fact that you have children and  it's almost like a question, but it's also like, I'm trying to make a point, you know, and it's like,

 

47:01

It gets very messy and there are all kinds of different forms that these types of questions can take. And that's where you want to encourage the betrayed partner to turn it into a statement, you know, where that's all stuff that's going through their mind. And I want the involved partner to be able to give them validation for the things that are going through their mind. Uh, and say, yeah, it makes sense. And, uh, I was being really insensitive and

 

47:29

that they can give validation for that. Let me get back to, so the question of why did you do this, right? So I have had cases where  we've probably spent like somewhere between eight to 12 months uh really working on the affair recovery, really helping the involved partner  to give a lot of validation and compassion and make it all about the betrayed partner's experience.

 

47:57

really focusing on them,  creating the safety for them. And they're still wondering why. And the couple is in a healthy enough place where I can begin to do some of the deeper  family of origin, inner child work with the involved partner.  because sometimes that's necessary, sometimes that really helps the betrayed partner.

 

48:24

Because they're like, OK, now we're finally getting to  the root of things. And like um quote unquote fixing my partner in a way that I can have more reassurance that they're not going to do this again. Right, because. Oftentimes people have affairs. Because because like they do have. Deep seated issues or shadows  or you know things. That they haven't.

 

48:54

or resolved or gone to therapy for.  And you know, usually an affair is not in the best interest of the person having the affair. It's it's it's mean it is selfish.  It's it's  it's immature and it's  it's going to create a lot more pain in their life than anything else. There is a place for that kind of work to happen. Even in the presence of their partner now.

 

49:25

There's also a play. This is a good  option too. If you're the couples therapist, if you can get the. Person who had the affair. In with a really good individual therapist and they can kind of do that work on their own right from the beginning and then that that could potentially make the couples work  go more smoothly. I wouldn't substitute it for couples work. I mean, I think the couples work is essential.

 

49:55

ah for people who are in the crisis phase coming out of that affair, but it could be a good something to add  in addition to the couple's work. And again, if you can do it, you can do it in the context of the couple's work with the betrayed partner as a witness, but there has to be a certain level of health on board. And sometimes it's just a matter that's just going to take a lot of time to get there before.

 

50:24

They're ready to do that. Oh, one last thing that I wanted to say, this is something that happens  pretty frequently, is that I wanted to talk about the difference between the healthy shame and the  toxic shame for the involved partner, the person who had the affair.  So sometimes what happens is the betrayed partner will say,  you're starting couples therapy that

 

50:53

They just found out about the affair. They'll come in, they'll say, oh my gosh, I'm devastated.  I'm so hurt. I'm so betrayed about what happened. This is the worst I've ever felt. The involved partner will begin  to  feel really sad and overwhelmed as well.  And you want to just, you want to be mindful of that, right? Like a lot of times that's a good thing because they're feeling the healthy guilt. Like if I hurt someone, I feel bad.

 

51:23

And that's a healthy part of being human. It makes us be accountable and to show up and to try to help the other person that we've heard. But sometimes it spirals into what I would call toxic shame, which is, oh, you know, they're crying and then all of sudden they'll say, well, I'm such a terrible person. You shouldn't even be with me. I've destroyed everything. I'm just horrible.

 

51:52

And now  all of sudden  they're sort of sucking the energy out of the room. And it's no longer about the compassion and empathy for the person who's been betrayed. Now the betrayed partner is like, you  know,  they could go into caretaking for the person who had the affair, because they're going into that kind of toxic shame. And you just want to be mindful of that and careful about that.

 

52:22

There are ways we can work with that and, you know, ways that we can sort of teach people the difference between those two things. So that was everything I was going to cover for today about infidelity. I hope this is helpful. As I said at the beginning, just keep in mind that every situation is different. You want to be really attuned to  the people you're working with. Some of these things are uh show up like in general in many of the cases, but

 

52:52

be really present with the people you're working with in order to make sure that you're hitting the mark for what they need, specifically need in their given situation. So thank you everybody. Hope you have a great rest of the week and I'll see you next time. The episode this week is brought to you by Alma. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. Alma handles all of the paperwork and guarantees payment within two weeks.  Visit HelloAlma.com.

 

53:20

or click on the link in the show notes to learn more. And thank you again, everybody. This is Shane Birkel, and this is The Couples Therapist Couch podcast. It's all about the practice of couples therapy. I hope you have a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye, everybody!